Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

xp i'm glad you thought so, i feel like realizing this has given me a lot of space to "be masculine" in small ways i like without letting it overwhelm my other qualities with gender anxiety. part of the issue with masculinity in american culture is its aggressive totalizing, but gender is like a small flavor component in a dish -- america keeps dumping cupfuls of it in everything, and it's obsessed with slightly modifying the flavor of the ingredient so it's more "authentic" but ultimately every dish just becomes overwhelmed with that insipid flavor and boring / monotonous as a result.

The problem of masculinity isn't an American problem. Americans just have happen to have more guns and more freedom of religion that pretends to not sometimes blatantly subjugate non-straight men.

Yep agreed it is intersectional, I’m just looking at that particular intersection because it’s what i know best.

Somehow, I am not sure that "dudes, pls chop off your beards" is what the Combahee River Collective had in mind

i feel like hearing more from people who transition from female to male would be really helpful for me in constructing a gendered masculine identity that i don't have to constantly pick apart.

― macropuente (map), Friday, December 14, 2018 3:10 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is a line of inquiry I've thought a lot about too that's guided a lot of my reading & gratefully-had convos on this subject with trans guys I've been close to or dated. This article is interesting on the subject:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.179c354c1823

interesting article hoos and good posts map. that's the kind of thing i always hoped this thread could be about.

the "are beards sexist?" line of inquiry is by far the stupidest thing i've seen on ilx.

in my 87 years of posting

ftr I never said they were

no, i liked your post especially the part about dressing provocatively. it's more rushomancy's insistence that it's something we must at least consider.

I just realized I should ask pom how my approach to whatever problem is problematic.

Not at all this time around, but thanks for asking!

I enjoyed reading that article HOOS posted

Yeah, that was a great read.

no, i liked your post especially the part about dressing provocatively. it's more rushomancy's insistence that it's something we must at least consider.

― Trϵϵship

yeah that's not even remotely what i said, i don't understand how people keep interpreting my post as being some sort of rabid beard-hater.

i mean i do understand at a certain point i was pretty aggressively ignorant about gender, i guess i'm just frustrated?

maybe this thread isn't for me. maybe i am no longer sufficiently masculine to talk with cis men about masculinity in a way they can comprehend.

that wapo article was a good one, i talked with my spouse about it when it came out

The problem of masculinity isn't an American problem.

You'd never guess that from this thread.

lookit

youve to insert it yrself tom its easier and it helps

The problem of masculinity isn't an American problem.

There are no men in England. I’ve been there.

neither of us are english buck

No-one can compare with an American man tbf.

First sensible post. 🔥🦅🔥

not American fwiw

🔥🔥🔥🔥🤠🤑🤑🤠🤠🔥🔥🔥🔥

(xp) I think we all know that by now.

All North and South Americans are American tbf.

Of course!

As long as we have to swear fealty to the queen I'll consider us closer to british but fair enough

Quebec would like to have a word with you.

revisiting the last week or so of this thread today to reconsider but wanted to pass along this suggested read for people who'd expressed curiosity about what a trans male orientation to masculinity can look like

In this groundbreaking new book, the author, a trans man, trains to fight in a charity match at Madison Square Garden while struggling to untangle the vexed relationship between masculinity and violence. Through his experience boxing—learning to get hit, and to hit back; wrestling with the camaraderie of the gym; confronting the betrayals and strength of his own body—McBee examines the weight of male violence, the pervasiveness of gender stereotypes, and the limitations of conventional masculinity. A wide-ranging exploration of gender in our society, Amateur is ultimately a story of hope, as McBee traces a new way forward, a new kind of masculinity, inside the ring and outside of it.

In this graceful, stunning, and uncompromising exploration of living, fighting, and healing, we gain insight into the stereotypes and shifting realities of masculinity today through the eyes of a new man.

https://www.amazon.com/Amateur-True-Story-About-Makes/dp/1501168746/ref=sr_1_1_twi_har_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1544999933&sr=1-1&keywords=amateur+thomas+page+mcbee

hmm

im not violent am i less inherently culpable in my masculinity as a result, and, if so, to what extent would you say

as in to say i think this is v much framing and begging the question:

the vexed relationship between masculinity and violence

I think people who are angry and violeny lack self-command, which is an important “masculine” virtue in my book. I never felt a gendered pressure to be less in control.

I think, though—and I’m not being sarcastic—that I might be too dumb to understand gender. I never understood caculus either.

you know I think that might be me as well, and the certainty with which so many make declarations about it is very alien to me

im sure yer admissions will be treated with the appropriate respect and admiration lads

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/

Atavistic residues of aggressive behavior prevailing in animal life, determined by testosterone, remain attenuated in man and suppressed through familial and social inhibitions. However, it still manifests itself in various intensities and forms from; thoughts, anger, verbal aggressiveness, competition, dominance behavior, to physical violence. Testosterone plays a significant role in the arousal of these behavioral manifestations in the brain centers involved in aggression and on the development of the muscular system that enables their realization. There is evidence that testosterone levels are higher in individuals with aggressive behavior, such as prisoners who have committed violent crimes. Several field studies have also shown that testosterone levels increase during the aggressive phases of sports games. In more sensitive laboratory paradigms, it has been observed that participant’s testosterone rises in the winners of; competitions, dominance trials or in confrontations with factitious opponents. Aggressive behavior arises in the brain through interplay between subcortical structures in the amygdala and the hypothalamus in which emotions are born and the prefrontal cognitive centers where emotions are perceived and controlled. The action of testosterone on the brain begins in the embryonic stage. Earlier in development at the DNA level, the number of CAG repeats in the androgen receptor gene seems to play a role in the expression of aggressive behavior. Neuroimaging techniques in adult males have shown that testosterone activates the amygdala enhancing its emotional activity and its resistance to prefrontal restraining control. This effect is opposed by the action of cortisol which facilitates prefrontal area cognitive control on impulsive tendencies aroused in the subcortical structures. The degree of impulsivity is regulated by serotonin inhibiting receptors, and with the intervention of this neurotransmitter the major agents of the neuroendocrine influence on the brain process of aggression forms a triad. Testosterone activates the subcortical areas of the brain to produce aggression, while cortisol and serotonin act antagonistically with testosterone to reduce its effects.

Not so vexing tbph.

I will say it's a relief of sorts when trans/nb ppl I know say, for instance, that they sometimes misgender themselves in conversation, or find some new bit of vernacular that they think more precisely aligns with what's going on with them. There's a fluidity that seems at odds with the didacticism of online that can sometimes crop up

on the flipside of this I also know someone who identifies as a trans TERF, a designation I find fascinating in abstract but uhh am obviously not rushing to discuss the particulars of with other nb people in my life

wau

im not violent am i less inherently culpable in my masculinity as a result, and, if so, to what extent would you say

as in to say i think this is v much framing and begging the question:

the vexed relationship between masculinity and violence

― gabbnebulous (darraghmac), Monday, December 17, 2018 5:33 PM (fifty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ah but you've zeroed in on a phrase on a book jacket; for a relationship to be vexed it's got to be complicated and worthy of nuance, and the vexation is presumably explored with appropriate nuance in the text itself -- i'll have the book by wednesday, looking forward to filling in some shading.

it looks good. we're all violent to some degree

I will say it's a relief of sorts when trans/nb ppl I know say, for instance, that they sometimes misgender themselves in conversation

sometimes in conversation and way too often in my brain, it takes a lot

map hit the nail on the head imo with that post about the heightened importance of gender in our society. Its like people are so obsessed with gendering themselves and others, drawing lines in the sand and defending them, that it gets blown up into this bloated and bizarre thing that dominates our entire being when it really is just a facet of ourselves

Sure okay. The consequences to women and people who present as atypically gendered are real, though. People who harass/harm/whatever these other groups don't stop to ask us, "Hey, do you feel, like, really feminine today? I figure if you're not prioritizing your gender identity, it's all good--I'll follow that other woman home from the train instead."

This may be common knowledge to some- I can never tell- but reading about the native americans and other cultures, the two spirits and their historical views on gender may be helpful, if not just interesting. There are many other articles that are more succinct but I am linking one from a more mainstream newsource. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america

io, i didn't mean to imply that women and atypically gendered people should place less emphasis on their gender as a means to be persecuted less. More so, I meant that societal gender roles, particularly male ones, inflate the importance of gender and breed convoluted rules, pressures, and the kind of persecution you are talking about

hard to know that you meant "men" when you wrote "people", boobie
just sayin

I've always been interested in things written about different experiences and ideas about gender by men who have transitioned, there's often some striving for solidity that I don't feel, or epiphanies and descriptions of 'ah, so this is what it's like to be a man' experiences that seem alien or off to me. mb not as alien as all these posts from americans, but still

not as alien as all these posts from americans

a board description imo

https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/a7dssc/how_do_im22_show_bro_love/

https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/12/old-boys-trump-kavanaugh-moonves-epstein-childish-masculinity.html

The Old Boy is so essentially dishonest that his lies seem almost innocent. An Old Boy lies fluently and to your face, and he will explode in rage if you point this out to him not because you’re wrong (this is key) but because you don’t matter and neither does the truth; an Old Boy gets to say and do what he likes. The Old Boy recognizes some authorities. He smiles at those he considers fellow Boys—there’s a faintly embarrassing abjection to this performance when it happens. (See Kavanaugh bowing and scraping to Trump when Trump introduced him as his nominee, or how solicitously Trump acts around Vladimir Putin.)

The flip side is that the Old Boy considers his mere presence a gift to those he sees as his inferiors. As a result, any honor conferred upon him is no more than his due. So yes, he lies, but only because that’s what a blinkered world requires in order for him to get what he is owed. To bring about the correct outcome, he gets to lie, and you get to believe it. That’s your privilege.

If you opt out of this peculiar script on which so much of the Old Boy’s worldview depends, the subtext of his answer to any question is “how dare you”? (Think of Kavanaugh addressing Sen. Amy Klobuchar during that hearing, or of Trump addressing the press. “No, no, we don’t answer that,” Bill Cosby replied when he was asked about the allegations against him.) This makes Old Boys slippery and confusing to deal with. The Old Boy doesn’t really answer a question because he denies that he can be questioned. And money and power have gotten plenty of people to play along and make this true. The Old Boy is fragility itself, buttressed by a hot and constant wind.

https://www.guernicamag.com/kiese-laymon-i-didnt-want-to-be-a-silent-survivor-of-moral-failure-anymore/

I just start every morning asking myself what I want to lie about.

hard not to love kiese laymon

Kiese is the best.