Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

apropos of nothing, I would just like to point out that ILX thread search results for "girls" (I was looking for that girls room thread ref'd above) are pretty horrifying. Early 2000s seem like the definite low point.

Do you feel like male ILX posters are generally oblivious to the gender-specific issues you face as women (not trolling, once again, it's a genuine question)? I personally draw a distinction between 'addressing men in general (i.e. more or less half of the world population, which does indeed tend towards the despicable)' and 'shooting the shit with 2018 ILX dudes/lads'. Not to say we who haunt these pages are utterly devoid of misogyny (that would be absurd), but I don't think it makes sense to thrust the burden of male representation so thoroughly upon us. I would be more supportive of generalizations about men in another context (in most other contexts, actually), as a matter of priority.

tbh when ppl say "oh you can just opt out of manhood" I just....have no idea what that means, practically speaking

― resident hack (Simon H.), Thursday, December 13, 2018 12:57 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Here are some cool practical ways to stop being a man that I've tried to do since I decided I didn't need to front like I was a man

0. Stop being a man
1. Talk quieter
2. Adopt more compact body language
3. Shave your face
4. Listen to women
5. Dress provocatively
6. Focus on being nonthreatening to those around you in public
7. Identify miscellaneous social scripts of masculinity you've adopted and stop doing them
8. Strengthen friendships with non-men

Patriarchy survives only as long as it continues to coerce perfectly ordinary people into being men

silby do u think that some ppl are born men and it isn't a choice and if not how do you account for transmen? similar question re performativity. i see a whole bunch of problems w/ your argument here that i wonder if you've thought through at all?

0. Stop being a man
1. Talk quieter
2. Adopt more compact body language
3. Shave your face
4. Listen to women
5. Dress provocatively
6. Focus on being nonthreatening to those around you in public
7. Identify miscellaneous social scripts of masculinity you've adopted and stop doing them
8. Strengthen friendships with non-men

check check and doublecheck!
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20140528231244%2Fgameofthrones%2Fimages%2F8%2F81%2FVarys-Profile-HD.png&f=1

are u guys taking silby's posts literally cuz I detect some humor there, maybe that's just me

mea culpa if he's just taking the piss

I mean number 5 and 6 seem pretty contradictory...

also lol this thread, prior to it I thought silby was a woman and Yerac was a man

live and learn I guess

lol

I've thought about all this a lot actually but thanks~ xp

so can u explain or

I'm always both joking and not joking

I'm not really competent to address the relationship of trans men with cis masculinity but it's been brought up itt before in response to my posts. I think that in a world without gender-based oppression, which is what we're all working towards, the category of "men" wouldn't exist, and that people who are trans men now will be freer in that world too.

I typed and erased like a dozen potential responses to that list which means this is an excellent time to bounce.

it seems like you're suggesting that ppl who identify as male are identifying with oppression and that without oppression there'd be no men but i think this is *&*problematic*&* for many ppl and despite what i think is yr good intentions in promoting it maybe deserves a rethink but ya know keep on joking/not joking you devil you ;) xp

silby is awesome.

xpost I don't know who pom's thing was addressed to, but I am constantly surprised (not really) about the huge blind spot a lot of men have regarding women. And I say all of this shit in real life if I come across men who are at varying levels of trying to catch up. Men just really don't seem to do very well processing generalizations about them as an unchoosing group to belong to, whereas other groups, that is our daily life. This may come off as being a shitty thing to say but yeah, unless I have met you or you have some really distinguishable posting characteristic, I can't really differentiate between a lot of posters, so nothing is really aimed at specific people as to who they are. I just see a lot of floundering here sometimes that is super annoying because these ideas of maleness and masculinity have bad, violent direct impacts on women.

if you're waiting for the day you can make generalizations about a group and not have individuals of that group be offended you're going to be waiting forever

I guess I should add that I have absolutely no problem with the behavioral points of silby's list

silby's post has made me feel a bit:

https://consequenceofsound.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/screen-shot-2015-07-29-at-8-41-22-am.png

I have problem with talking more quietly, I'm fairly inaudible as it is.

How should I take that exactly, are you the train or the sad bald person

I think people should do that if it makes them feel more themselves. But if they are more comfortable having a beard, watching sports, and being “masculine” I think people should do that, whether they are cis or trans or whatever. I don’t critique people’s gender presentation because it’s a personal thing and a psychologically charges thing.

mordy you were offended i told anecdotes about my spouse. I can NEVER please you.

NB i was specifically addressing Simon’s question about how to practically disaffiliate oneself from manhood

xps a little of all the above.

Yeah people can “opt out” of being a man but I definitely don’t want to and no one should do it because they feel ethically obligated that’s ridiculous.

And like mordy said, an implication to sayinf it’s bad ro be a man is that trans men, who suffer from dysphoria, are identifying with an oppressive identity which seems like not the best thing for them to hear

I will probably regret posting itt, but on the other hand I’ve already had one highly emotive argument this evening so why not!

Also I didn’t read every single reply in depth so don’t @ me if I’m repeating you accidentally, you can just ignore this response.

This:

One of the ways men bond is by demonstrating collective power over women. This is why business deals are still done in strip clubs, even in Silicon Valley, and why tech conferences are famous for their “booth babes.” It creates an atmosphere of complicity and privilege. It makes rich men partners in crime. This is useful if you plan to get ethically imaginative with your investments. Hence the half-naked models, who are all working a lot harder than any of the guys in shirtsleeves.

I connected this immediately to the discussion about incels. I’ve read incels’ thoughts on women and they’re pretty frightening but they’re an extreme extension of what is described above. Incels don’t think of women as fully human - they call them “femoids”. They spend their time fantasising about hurting and humiliating women. They talk about having daughters that they won’t educate and sons that they will. It sounds stupid and most of this is pure pathetic fantasy. But. But. But.

To a large extent this is the distilled sentiment of misogyny that permeates the world to different degrees. The strip club example is interesting because to me the idea of actually going to one is quite old fashioned and I don’t think I know anyone who’s actually been to one! The defensive responses were really intriguing to me because I’d never considered people my age or a bit older going to one. It’s not strip clubs themselves that are the problem, the point is about doing business there. The point is that women are decoration, not participants. Objects, not fully people. It’s about power in aggregate, not people’s individual experiences.

It’s funny people mentioning getting Yerac and silby’s genders wrong cos I’ve been constantly mistaken for male online. One of the reasons is that I often choose a neutral or not obviously female name and there are loads of reasons for that; the other is that I tend to be fairly direct/blunt/aggressive. But over the years I tend to qualify what I say more, pull my punches a bit and I definitely try not to contribute to threads like this because honestly, the response can be overwhelmingly negative and after years of it, it’s easier just to scroll past and not participate. But I do think places like this do need female voices and its generally not a great sign ime when female posters start dipping out.

Yerac, I'm on board with almost everything you said, but that blind spot you mention is nowhere near as massive here as it is, well, almost everywhere else. Don't you think it warrants a different approach to the problem?

xps

My gender is underspecified anyway and it’s gratifying that I confuse people.

nah.
xpost

That’s a good post gyac. I agree that passage certaibly speaks to a dynamic with this sexist subculture we’re discussing.

gyac, i have a gender neutral name too and just write how I want to write and say what I want to say and it has served me well my entire life; people are surprised a lot when I show up for job interviews or meetings.

Yeah people can “opt out” of being a man but I definitely don’t want to and no one should do it because they feel ethically obligated that’s ridiculous.

― Trϵϵship, Thursday, December 13, 2018 9:55 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Can I ask ppl to interrogate this a bit more? We have def had a related convo somewhere before like, "If I feel okay as and identify as a man, then isn't everything I do by definition 'masculine' because I am doing it from within my accepted gender identity?" Which I think is otm, and is similar to how I feel about being a not-always-super-feminine woman or not doing what's expected of me w/r/t my gender.

So I'm enjoying silby's posts too but to be a little less tongue-in-cheek and also I hope address Treezy's point, my question is, what does your identity as a man look like? What is important to you about it? When do you feel most (and least) "manly"? Can you think of some aspect of your identity that, if it were gone, would you make you feel like NOT a man?

Can you name one thing that you feel obligated to do in your man identity that you DON'T like? And one thing that you feel expected to do that you DO like?

I think there's tons of room for self-discovery and self-definition talk.

silby, io, and yerac are nailing this really well and to me self-evidently so

xp!

We have def had a related convo somewhere before like

yeah, we have. back on the train with Bald Billy I guess lol

tbrr a lot of what I think my stance on gender is I owe to people esp. women in my life who have generously made time for my anxiety over it and to people esp. women who have addressed my shitty behavior with me directly and gotten me to reflect on it, most especially of all my partner, that's just something I wanna say b/c people are giving me compliments

Can I ask ppl to interrogate this a bit more? We have def had a related convo somewhere before like, "If I feel okay as and identify as a man, then isn't everything I do by definition 'masculine' because I am doing it from within my accepted gender identity?" Which I think is otm, and is similar to how I feel about being a not-always-super-feminine woman or not doing what's expected of me w/r/t my gender.

I've been thinking about a lot of stuff related to this recently - mainly because of trans-related issues within the school system and trying to educate myself and be as open as possible. It's made me interrogate, in trying to think myself through the process of what it must be like to feel 'not at home' or something like that, what someone who ostensibly does feel 'at home' actually feels like - ie myself. And I only find an absence, or perhaps more precisely I only find a whole load of assumptions and layer upon layer of discourse markers and detritus. Which is to say, it seems most (all) aspects of my performative masculinity are adopted and interchangeable - whether personal or, and I choose my words carefully here, imposed. I feel I'm of an age (in my 40s) where most of this stuff doesn't necessarily matter any more - at a personal level - and it's been revelatory just how much can be cast off. It's also been interesting working in a department with what are, ostensibly at least, some incredibly strong female colleagues, and navigating what's expected, what's acceptable and what one can do with and do without.

Not to say that there aren't whole aspects of my behaviour which aren't sub-or-unconscious, and still need appraising and thinking through, and I don't necessarily feel any the wiser about the trans and gender issues, but the whole - ongoing - process has been revelatory all the same.

None of which really answers any of your questions, but still.

Do you feel like male ILX posters are generally oblivious to the gender-specific issues you face as women (not trolling, once again, it's a genuine question)?
generally, idk. occasionally/periodically absolutely YES. i could point to times where i was like WHOA but IO was also super otm about us having endured a lot of stuff, picked ourselves up, worked on working through it, and continued to try to engage. i know it sounds weird but i actually don't want to relive every shitty experience i have had just so someone remembers that people have those experiences.

as a community, yes i think ilx has some reckoning to do with gender-specific issues. (see the post above about threads with "girls" in the thread title, see also: tolerance of trolls-for-lols, socks, deception, and disingenuous behavior in general.

IO is making a lot of sense and i appreciate the respect she is getting for her ability to distill complex shit itt

what does your identity as a man look like? What is important to you about it? When do you feel most (and least) "manly"? Can you think of some aspect of your identity that, if it were gone, would you make you feel like NOT a man?

these are good questions everyone should ponder in relation to their gender (funnily enough these questions were explicitly raised in a parent exercise for my kid's preschool co-op a little while ago).

since the manly thing to do here would be to weigh in with my own personal experience as a man (lol), let me just say that for my part currently the only things about my identity I consider "manly" are in relation to my family, where I am a husband and a father and in many senses filling traditional roles (breadwinner, buttwiper, font of useless knowledge no one actually wants to hear about). idk if those things make me feel "manly" (which, tbh, is really not something I ever think about) but they are certainly traditional male roles that our broader society expects ppl like me to fulfill, so its more an acknowledgment that that is the social milieu I am operating in than any deep personal identification with the concept of masculinity. I am very conscious of the fact that I am 24/7 modeling what it means to be a husband and a father to my children, and in that sense I am trying to make sure that that includes a lot of things that are not typically construed as masculine (compassion, preparing the majority of our meals, cleaning the house, crying at stupid movies etc.)

xps

oh, and not interrupting people (incl women and girls of course) in conversation. I was raised in a family of non-stop bantering/arguing where everyone talked over each other (lol Jews) so this has been maybe the most deeply rooted thing to try and course-correct.

Manly, hate that word!

everybody overtalked fernandohierro itt

xps it's your responsibility to provide the dad jokes

I still have about 40 posts to catch up reading but...

If you don’t have female friends then something is up with you
Thanks Yarec

If you hang with fellow straight dudes then something is off with you
Great, I won’t hang with anybody I guess

This obviously doesn’t apply to all straight dudes hanging out #notallmen
Whatever

Stop making this all about you. Something something you ever wonder why there are less females posting on ILX
.

What you're describing here is shame—an extremely painful negative self-image which is not tied to specific actions or qualities I dislike about myself

― The house from the popular "Our House" song (bernard snowy)

continuing from nine hours ago - sorry if i'm fucking up the thread flow here - i'm very personally familiar with shame. however, on reflection i don't think i've had any true free-floating shame. all the shame i've had comes from somewhere. i've particularly felt, for most of my life, a lot of shame about being gender non-conforming. it seems to me that a lot of incel language (and if you want to come up with a different name for them, go for it, i'm not a prescriptivist and my calling them that doesn't, for me, imply any level of belief in their particular delusions) is about expressing that same discomfort. they don't conform to the social construct of masculinity and are deeply ashamed of this.

there's also, somewhere in there, an implicit acknowledgement that this particular masculine social construct is incredibly toxic. they envy the "chads", but there's very little pretense that the "chads" are anything other than completely awful people. this is complicated by their programmed sexual desires, which are often for constructed women/objects as superficial and artifical as the "chads" they hate/love.

it's super fucked up that they think this is all somehow natural and believe that being like this is the only option they have and succeeding at this grotesque heterosexual charade is the only chance people have to be happy.

i'm super on board with silby's suggestions, my only disagreement with them is silby's suggestion that it's easy. i find that directly dealing with gender requires mindfulness and intentionality. but over the past couple of weeks i have been interrogating what mostly unconscious behaviors mark me out in the world as "male" and what it looks like, how i feel, if i refrain from those behaviors.

I want to complicate the "straight male friends" point by noting that I think it's especially necessary, if men are to assist in breaking toxic masculinity, for men to be friends with men in order to do that--all the while bearing in mind silby's list & the other ways available to us to contest the worst aspects of male superiority when we see it.

I've given this some thought and I think what I recoiled at in silby's list was the implication, maybe a misinterpreted one on my part, that aesthetic choices about how to present oneself can help to unfuck patriarchy in some way. because frankly I'm not interested, in the context of my own life, in shaving as activism. I would feel like a moron.

which I suppose is another way of saying that the way in which I do relate to incels isn't primarily the shared awkwardnesses or whatever, it's the fact that they have been lured in by a cult of death, which to my mind is what capitalism itself is (especially now), and I guess it makes me wish I felt I could do more than try to be nice to people in my everyday life. I want to be able to shake these dumbasses and explain what real structural oppression and horror is. and I think my shame stems from the fact that my frustrations, the feelings themselves (not the target nor supposed source) are too close to home to be able to do that effectively, ever

And yeah I can and do do all the nice and reasonable actions that have been listed in this thread, and I treasure my female friendships and especially the surprising number of opportunities I've had to offer emotional support in dark moments, but at the end of the day I feel absolutely no better about life and what I can bring to it than those dumbass kids do