Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

profound hopelessness and alienation should not be a universal adolescent experience

I don't know about "universal", but in the USA, most of the slightly-older adolescents who have passed the age of puberty (which is its own horrible thing) have a good understanding that apart from exploiting them at every opportunity, society has no place for them or interest in them at all. Even the really bright ones who are constantly told they are the future leaders of the country know the best they can realistically hope for is being highly paid servants of the oligarchy. Humans are not well-designed for living in vast impersonal herds.

really? we seem to be doing a p bang-up job of it what with however many billions of us there are now

you call this doing a bang-up job?

You’re not supposed to look in there.

― Trϵϵship, Wednesday, December 12, 2018 1:48 PM (twenty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

will not again, promise. I just saw the revive and wondered if it was in response to this thread and it was.

ha you are allowed to look but not to post. it's a public thread iirc

you are allowed to peek, but not to peak

can't remember who the ilx man was that posted in there before. was very classic "well, actually"

purportedly we have been mansplaining about incels. Can't we just have this be our safe space to mansplain?

By "this" do you mean all of ilx?

lol

we have a male only thread its mainly for powerwasher talk

its good tho

mansplaining about incels is like dancing about architecture

good if we kept toxic/aggressive sexist terms like the splaining word off the masculinity thread feel like the tendency to sneer is already unhelpful enough on the topic around here nest pas

The Contrapoint about masochistic epistemology – ‘whatever hurts is true’ – was striking to me bc it’s become such a deeply ingrained part of how ppl in 2018 moralise more generally. It’s the intuitive appeal of what ppl deride as ‘victim culture’ or the ‘oppression olympics’, or a clip I just saw of Sarah Kendzior criticising the US media in which she said “what matters is who gets hurt”. Suffering becomes this unassailable foundation that you can build an identity on, and as suffering is subjective and sympathy is limited and unreliable, this will tend to drive division.

i hope that people read that Ijeoma Oluo essay that inorbit posted. There is so much truth in there.

man alive, do you have a kid into that Frozen movie? because threads that are not for you, you’ve just got to ponder their comments a moment and then... there’s a song for that

i think the thing i don't get most about incels is that when i was an unfuckable 19 year old loser cishet white-passing man who played too much Counterstrike and struggled with anxiety disorder, depression and borderline alcoholism i attributed this to me being shitty and not anything else

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver)

it was a little... solipsistic for me. it's a variety of self-hatred where one is simultaneously better and worse than everybody else, and you hate everybody else for being better than you and not as good as you at the same time.

i don't know if i'd necessarily identify these incels as "cishet". there's a tortured relationship to gender and masculinity present that's certainly not queer, but addresses gender more specifically than any of the "default male" types do.

Continuing to uncritically employ the 'incel' label (even just as a shorthand for discussing those who've self-selected it as a descriptor) has the pernicious effect of justifying its unsupportable underlying assertions (ie 'my celibacy is involuntary and therefore the fault of women'). IMHO. It's like 'crisis actor' and 'SJW' and 'virtue signalling': a gross pejorative that attempts to twist reality around whatever internal shitscape the utterer is refusing to deal with.

it was a little... solipsistic for me. it's a variety of self-hatred where one is simultaneously better and worse than everybody else, and you hate everybody else for being better than you and not as good as you at the same time.

It's not unique to so-called "incels"—plenty of people I met in treatment for drug addiction have it. As others have already pointed out, it responds to therapy, particularly group therapy.

Continuing to uncritically employ the 'incel' label (even just as a shorthand for discussing those who've self-selected it as a descriptor) has the pernicious effect of justifying its unsupportable underlying assertions (ie 'my celibacy is involuntary and therefore the fault of women'). IMHO. It's like 'crisis actor' and 'SJW' and 'virtue signalling': a gross pejorative that attempts to twist reality around whatever internal shitscape the utterer is refusing to deal with.

― Home Despot (Old Lunch), Thursday, December 13, 2018 2:52 PM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

100. The fact they self-identify as 'involuntary celibate' focuses their problems on 1. can't get laid, 2. because it's someone else's fault - when really there's a whole crate of issues here that need unpacking

there's also the insistence by many that it's not about sex per se -- there's no interest in pursuing casual sex, or paying for sex, among most of the community (at least according to the articles I've read)

it really comes down to wanting a largely asymmetrical relationship, with a woman that meets their standards of attractiveness, that includes sex

a gross pejorative that attempts to twist reality around whatever internal shitscape the utterer is refusing to deal with.
― Home Despot (Old Lunch), Thursday, December 13, 2018 2:52 PM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i just want to highlight that this is really nicely said & clear, otm

It's about "winning" in a very narrow sense, vanquishing other men in a hierarchy where only men matter or exist. Women are just vehicles for putting other men down. I think HOOS was otm with:

it feels like they have this sense that a Chad is all you're allowed to be, you're that or an outcast and a nobody, and it's such an impoverished sense of the world

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, December 12, 2018 1:39 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is it about winning, or just being able to engage in some way with that male hierarchy?

^ Yeah, interesting question. There's kind of a vicarious power in identifying with the hierarchy, even if one renders oneself the 'loser'.

Going back to men hanging out in groups. Someone posted an article in the bitcoin thread yesterday and this part stood out.

One of the ways men bond is by demonstrating collective power over women. This is why business deals are still done in strip clubs, even in Silicon Valley, and why tech conferences are famous for their “booth babes.” It creates an atmosphere of complicity and privilege. It makes rich men partners in crime. This is useful if you plan to get ethically imaginative with your investments. Hence the half-naked models, who are all working a lot harder than any of the guys in shirtsleeves.

like a mode of gang initiation

Good job I don't know hang out with rich men, I think.

xp do you really imagine the hangouts of the guys posting in this thread in any way resemble that, even metaphysically? I have literally never been to a strip club.

I have, but only in the USA and only having been dragged there by some American guys - two different occasions. Hideous.

they do though

Seriously guys...#notallmen

I mean it's great that you are looking at your own personal lives to make sure you are in the clear... whew.

collective ilx male responsibility for #allmen always a success iirc

essentialism is really cool

I mean it's great that you are looking at your own personal lives to make sure you are in the clear... whew.

Yes, that's what's going on there.

i don't doubt that all of those dynamics are in play with certain groups of friends. i just object to that being seen as like the paradigm of male bonding.

groups of friends groups of men

if that's a #notallmen deflection then fine

One of the ways men bond
One of the ways men bond
One of the ways men bond

Original sin is an excellent doctrine to build a civilization upon iirc.

So anyway, in case one was wondering why some of us are uncomfortable with all straight men hanging out in groups it's because of this dynamic (the rich guy angle is just a variation). There have been a lot of recent discussion/articles about things like "rape trains" as well. And this goes back to men who wouldn't think of participating in terrible behaviour who will engage when in a group with other men.

I have virtually no male friends but I'm not going to pretend it's because I'm exceptionally well-adjusted or anything.

I got dragged to one on a stag do. Midday - a pub near Heathrow. We had to pay a big dude £1 to guard the car. I'm guessing, but it seemed to be mainly shift-workers in the 'crowd' and the dancers, who danced on a small raised stage in the corner, seemed to be mostly Eastern European. They came round with a pint jug after each dance. A private dance was £10 - behind a gingham curtain in what looked like a old toilet. Hideous doesn't even begin to cover it.

I suppose the key word there is dragged. I had a fair idea and went anyway. So I'm not in the clear, albeit I lasted about 10 minutes and made my excuses.

(xp) Or the opposite.

xp do you really imagine the hangouts of the guys posting in this thread in any way resemble that, even metaphysically? I have literally never been to a strip club.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, December 13, 2018 6:57 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

metaphysically? absolutely yes. the male gaze is real.

rich ppl are a problem group forsure nest pas

I've been to strip clubs, they just make me feel like I need to do more push ups and squats.

Never been to a strip club or a stag party and I have no interest in doing so. Does this count as #notallmen-ing?

team i'm not at all sure the quoted excerpt was supposed to be a finger pointing at the thread, this feels a little confusingly defensive