Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

Hoos anti-choice vs pro-life ffs

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, December 11, 2018 11:07 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Just using the terms Han used in her study but I take your point

DSA is maybe among the closest things we've got

I'd actually like to also strike this language from my post because it gives DSA way more oomph than it deserves

This is exactly how I spent ages 16-19 wearing a WWJD? bracelet. Youth Group was lit

people need something. no one was built for solitude.

some are

be the change you want to see itt, no sweeping statements

otoh In as far as adaptation goes you could accurately say humans literally aren't built for solitude.

look if we're allowed launch into evolutionary stuff then let's go but i dont want to hear any tears from the back when it goes the way it was always gonna go

hmm I'll happily call that bluff, that angle doesn't lead down that dark a hole. Especially not here.

I mean it's facts that we're neurologically wired for distributed dependency and that we experience distress in prolonged isolation. Doesn't mean solitude can't be nourishing in doses, and for some people especially so. Sarah Hrdy's work, especially *Mother and Others* is really good on the influence evolution has had on our constructions of different forms of community over time, from the village onward.

Long excerpt incoming sorry not sorry

http://faculty.spokanefalls.edu/InetShare/AutoWebs/SarahMa/Hrdy.pdf

So how did our prehuman and early human ancestresses living in the Pleistocene Epoch (from 1.6 million until roughly 10,000 years ago) manage to get those calories? And under what conditions would natural selection allow a female ape to produce babies so large and slow to develop that they are beyond her means to rear on her own?

The old answer was that fathers helped out by hunting. And so they do. But hunting is a risky occupation, and fathers may die
or defect or take up with other females. And when they do, what then? New evidence from surviving traditional cultures suggests that mothers in the Pleistocene may have had a significant degree of help—from men who thought they just might
have been the fathers, from grandmothers and great-aunts, from older children.

These helpers other than the mother, called allomothers by sociobiologists, do not just protect and provision youngsters. In
groups such as the Efe and Aka Pygmies of central Africa, allomothers actually hold children and carry them about. In these
tight-knit communities of communal foragers—within which men, women, and children still hunt with nets, much as humans are thought to have done tens of thousands of years ago—siblings, aunts, uncles, fathers, and grandmothers hold newborns
on the first day of life. When University of New Mexico anthropologist Paula Ivey asked an Efe woman, “Who cares for
babies?” the immediate answer was, “We all do!”

By three weeks of age, the babies are in contact with allomothers 40 percent of the time. By eighteen weeks, infants actually spend more time with allomothers than with their gestational mothers. On average, Efe babies have fourteen different caretakers, most of whom are close kin. According to Washington State University anthropologist Barry Hewlett, Aka babies are within arm’s reach of their fathers for more than half of every day.

Accustomed to celebrating the antiquity and naturalness of mother-centered models of child care, as well as the nuclear family in which the mother nurtures while the father provides, we Westerners tend to regard the practices of the Efe and the Aka as exotic. But to sociobiologists, whose stock in trade is comparisons across species, all this helping has a familiar ring.
It’s called cooperative breeding. During the past quarter century, as anthropologists and sociobiologists started to compare notes, one of the spectacular surprises has been how much allomaternal care goes on, not just within various human societies
but among animals generally.

Evidently, diverse organisms have converged on cooperative breeding for the best of evolutionary reasons. A broad look at the most recent evidence has convinced me that cooperative breeding was the strategy that permitted our own ancestors to produce costly, slow-maturing infants at shorter intervals, to take advantage of new kinds of resources in habitats other than the mixed savanna-woodland of tropical Africa, and to spread more widely and swiftly than any primate had before.

I agree with HOOS that DSA is not that impactful on a large scale (they take up a LOT of online discourse but are in reality still extremely tiny) but any kind of value-based community that has some tangible conception of a future that's not just a black hole, and that offers a dimension of human connection that's not conventionally transactional and/or sexual in nature, is certainly of use, and a solid prescription to people who can't conceive of any future at all in which they might feasibly continue to exist and, possibly, feel a thing that's not just completely awful

Incels sound to me like they're taking the social situation of high school at its worst (acceptance based on conformity, aggressive punishment of the different, Chad very much in charge) and applying that to all of adult life. This is relatable and a terrible mistake.

I find the Chad cartoon character they make pictures of pretty funny. It captures a type of man who does still turn up in adult life. Thick as fuck, rolls along barking and woofing. There's a critique of limited masculinity in there somewhere but it's buried in fatalism.

Of course when I were a lad we had Joseph Conrad for that etc etc

Prescribing the incels self help mainstays (take exercise, learn skilled and healthy cooking, etc) is probably correct but the very obviousness of these fixes begs the question, why are these lads not exercising and cooking in the first place. Probably the disruptive power of technology in late capitalism, plus the marketisation of everything leaving fewer and fewer low pressure spaces.

well, why does anybody not exercise etc when told to

it feels like they have this sense that a Chad is all you're allowed to be, you're that or an outcast and a nobody, and it's such an impoverished sense of the world

burn their entire worldview to the ground. it's a dead end and there is nothing salvageable about them.

they are people experiencing alienation and self-loathing and they've latched on to this thing. that's it.

like, to be helped, they need to let go of the self-identity as an "incel." it's not a thing. they're just people.

Sounds like a plan

it's a good plan

http://www.startribune.com/growing-men-s-shed-movement-gives-retirees-a-place-to-talk-give-back-and-feel-valued/502210701/

MEN'S SHEDS

FOR MEN

TO STAVE OFF DEPRESSION AND SUICIDE

WITH GLUE STICKS

they are people experiencing alienation and self-loathing and they've latched on to this thing. that's it.

― Trϵϵship, Wednesday, December 12, 2018 1:54 AM (fifty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Describing a problem simply doesn't make it easy to solve, boss

i think as observers we should stop calling them "incels" and validating their belief that this is their real problem

jesus this thread blew up

for what it's worth these guys get no sympathy from me, none of these people have any problems i haven't had, and if they choose to deal with it by pooping themselves and trying to give themselves theodore roosevelt neck that's their own damn fault

yeah i mean, i'm certainly not volunteering to befriend these people. but at the same time i do feel like some of these people are experiencing a deep inner circle of misery that i, for all of my bouts with depression, just haven't. i never turned to hatred for sustenance.

i also think the internet has a lot to answer for here. many of these guys could have been on a different path--they got recruited into a hate ideology

For sure. I give thanks regularly that the internet wasn’t a thing when I was an awkward depressed acne-ridden late teen with delusions of grandeur, low self-esteem, a chip on my shoulder and a need to please. I probably wouldn’t have ended up in an incel vortex but ... the possibility definitely exists I might have.

yeah there are a lot of things about how we live now that are not cool. theses types of communities are a symptom--an extreme one--but i regard them that way.

really want to hear more about Yerac’s relative with the wilderness rehab camp, how it was not voluntary but yet helpful? like I really hope it’s not the abduction-style scenario I have read about but...

jesus this thread blew up

more like droned on, with the exception of good hoos posts

no one should ever have to be faced with discussion of incels online or irl again. that's my 2020 platform.

That's kind of you map but good contributions all around imo

http://www.startribune.com/growing-men-s-shed-movement-gives-retirees-a-place-to-talk-give-back-and-feel-valued/502210701/

MEN'S SHEDS

FOR MEN

TO STAVE OFF DEPRESSION AND SUICIDE

WITH GLUE STICKS

― j., Wednesday, 12 December 2018 02:36 (three hours ago) Permalink

This actually seems very sweet and like a good thing and I kind of wish we didn't feel this impulse to mock anything like this. That feels very much like *part of the problem*.

yep

sorry, sorry, i'm trying to delete it

God bless them for not calling it a 'he shed.'

yeah i mean, i'm certainly not volunteering to befriend these people. but at the same time i do feel like some of these people are experiencing a deep inner circle of misery that i, for all of my bouts with depression, just haven't. i never turned to hatred for sustenance.

― Trϵϵship

I did. The Internet was a thing when I was an awkward depressed acne-ridden late teen with delusions of grandeur, low self-esteem, and a chip on my shoulder. I was absolutely an asshole troll in the '90s. You know, in hindsight I was wrong about a lot of things, but as miserable and fucked up as I was and as many mistakes as I made, I wouldn't have said or done the things they say and do. Depression takes a lot of away personal agency, sure, but these guys still have choices, and they're consistently making the worst possible choices.

Just to play devil's advocate, back in the 90s, the internet didn't provide as many opportunities to be an irredeemable troll.

Incel ideology is thorough & robust in the same way that other depressive thinking can be: it anticipates most challenges, it feeds off failed attempts to engage and it feels intuitive because it harnesses lots of ideas and attitudes that exist in the wider culture. If you’re disgusted by them, they feed off it. If you think they don’t ‘deserve’ to feel that bad and are being self-indulgent, they feed off it. If you think it would be easy for them not to be so hateful and there is no excusing their behaviour, they feed off it. Not that they need to be engaged; it’s primarily acquired passively. They at once feel anger from feeling excluded from the patriarchy and can draw on all anger directed at it & all attempts to shame sexist and toxic behaviour. That’s robust! The most secure, virtuous and well-adjusted can feel jaded & dejected reading social media, it’s impossible to empathise with everyone enough to read them all charitably. If you’re inclined to lean into that feeling you have a seemingly infinite source of self-destructive energy.

The Contrapoint about masochistic epistemology – ‘whatever hurts is true’ – was striking to me bc it’s become such a deeply ingrained part of how ppl in 2018 moralise more generally. It’s the intuitive appeal of what ppl deride as ‘victim culture’ or the ‘oppression olympics’, or a clip I just saw of Sarah Kendzior criticising the US media in which she said “what matters is who gets hurt”. Suffering becomes this unassailable foundation that you can build an identity on, and as suffering is subjective and sympathy is limited and unreliable, this will tend to drive division.

I agree w/ treesh and think pathologising is a bad idea because it reifies their bullshit and continues to mask the differences between them, and their humanity, which is their only way out. Individuals might benefit from exercising, buying jeans, reading self-help, becoming religious, or doing any of the other things that help ppl calm down and feel in control, but I don’t see why there would be one primary solution. Lots of ppl will have internet addictions but that’s not necessarily easily treated in a blanket manner either. Personally I think striving for an evolution of The Lads should be a worthwhile project and might help some of these guys, but that’s one of the toughest jobs going.

xpost, the wilderness camp was probably ten if not more years ago so I don't remember much. He was in high school, not going because of body image issues, bad skin, had hopes of being a white boy rapper...He actually did get taken in the middle of the night. I think the whole thing was very expensive. His dad got to visit once like 1-2 months into it and then when he went to pick him up ( I remember this because the camp was in NY and he stayed with us in NYC). I think they had therapists there to lead the group sessions but it was a lot of just having to live, work and talk with other people. I think he was there 3 months? I am sure that didn't solve everything but he finished high school, took awhile to finish college but finally did it, has a job, (lives by himself by the apt was paid for by a parent) works out A LOT (he is super cut) and he's a very very good mediator during conversations. Because I am also pretty troll-y in real life and he just rolls with it.

Just to play devil's advocate, back in the 90s, the internet didn't provide as many opportunities to be an irredeemable troll.

― pomenitul

True. I would've done a different set of terrible things as a late teen in 2016 than I actually did as a late teen in 1996. Even accounting for that, I can't see that I would have chosen that path, and it's not because I'm a "good person".

plenty of people behaved irredeemably in the 90s offline too and i'm not sure the market for devil's advocacy isn't what it used to be

oops *is* what it used to be (if there really ever was one)
big whoops there

Honestly I struggle to figure out why I didn't go the way they did even though I was and am fucked up in all the ways they are. I think the thing in me that detests them most is my pride in my ability to self-sabotage. Sure, you could completely destroy your entire life by deliberately constantly pooping yourself, but it's such a lazy and uninteresting way to self-sabotage. I like to flatter myself that my self-sabotage is of a higher standard.

Someone I know had her OWN KID nabbed out of his bed in the middle of the night and sent to wilderness camp across the country after he was found with pot in school. Apparently she used his whole college savings account to do it, so those places must be $$$.

I met him when he came back. He seemed fine, but still 100% uninterested in the upper middle class suburban life his mom wanted him to be grateful for.

good post ogmor

Maybe the market for devil's advocacy isn't what it used to be because of the internet.

Seriously, though, I do think it has changed our shitty behaviour. I don't know if it has made us better or worse, but certain types of irredeemable offline nastiness are indeed less prevalent nowadays, in part because they've been sublimated by online free speech. But the more time we spend online, the harder it becomes to construe the internet as a secondary, cathartic trash can for what we do IRL. Our virtual shittiness spills back into 'reality', so maybe the circuit is the only thing that has changed.

I finally watched that Contrapoints video on incels btw (everyone should see it), and I get what you mean, ogmor, but to my mind (and hers) therapy can help us move away from this masochistic epistemology, which I think we are all invested in to some extent. It just needs to do a better job of acknowledging the particulars of inceldom and not view them as wholly alien-like and abject, no matter how tempting that might be, especially in light of that guy who committed suicide after shitting his pants on camera.

Just to play devil's advocate, back in the 90s, the internet didn't provide as many opportunities to be an irredeemable troll.

being able to crosspost your trolling to any number of newgroups really saved time for going outside and doing things

i think the thing i don't get most about incels is that when i was an unfuckable 19 year old loser cishet white-passing man who played too much Counterstrike and struggled with anxiety disorder, depression and borderline alcoholism i attributed this to me being shitty and not anything else