Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

I get what you're saying and some guys do that, yeah, but blanket statements aren't very helpful imho.

I “get” what you’re saying too but I actually find it extremely offensive.

My straight male friends aren’t worse people than my other friends. Wtf

When these are the guys that are taking up all the space, then the blanket is pretty much suffocating everything.

Yes yes #notallmen.

I don't know any straight people

― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, December 11, 2018 1:08 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

goals

I have a hard time picturing a get-together for ILX straight dudes where we all go 'man, isn't it awesome that we finally have our own safe space so we can shit talk about everyone who isn't a normal, straight dude like us?'

There is already enough stigma against men forming close nonds or having authentic emotional conversations with each other, thanks to repressive ideas about masculinity. Seems like a bad trend for the left to jump on.

We are talking about gender which is a system of coercive blanket statements so yes blanket statements are hurtful but I think non-men are allowed to be a bit arch about the foibles of men roaming about in single-gender packs, which are a menace.

essentialism is good when you're being essentialist about cis-men, treeship

I mean I think the idea of gender is completely unnecessary as well.

I didn't mean to imply with my original post that I think male camaraderie is bad (most of my best friends are other men), or that bro-ing down with one's best bros is bad, either, just that hanging out in groups of all (usually straight) men gives me kind of a bad vibe.

I was talking to my spouse's colleague the other day about his annual holiday film festival that takes place over 2? days that he has been doing for over 15 years at his parents house when he goes home for xmas. And it's him and all his childhood friends. Last year was the first year they opened it up and invited women. I actually took a pause and quietly asked "you do have female friends right?"

The last time I did any sort of group "bro hang" in which all present were straight guys was a group of college friends when one of them was about to have a baby. We brought whiskey and a joint to a park, and about 1/3 of the conversation wound up being about birth plans.

I think statements like this men roaming about in single-gender packs, which are a menace. are kind of part of the problem, and just push the lonliest of men into groups like Proud Boys that actually ARE a menace? I.e. if there is no positive outlet for that sort of traditionally male energy that is now, it seems, largely seen as a negative force, it will find actual negative outlets. Or just simmer in loneliness.

some guys don't have female friends, it's true

man alive otm

also, a complicating factor is that if you are married or in a serious relationship you might tend to choose to "maintain boundaries" in opposite sex friendships (e.g. if, like me, you have a tendency to fall for female friends), which might limit some activities like going out drinking.

I'm not pushing any lonely men into joining the proud boys by being ever so slightly hyperbolic on this messageboard. Groups of cheerful young men wandering around together at night in the neighborhoods I spend time in make me anxious and worry for my safety more than, say, any given shouting person having a bad time. And I'm not even a woman.

ok, I can understand that, but might the solution be changing the way the men in those groups think rather than banning groups of men?

Who exactly is banning anything? Yerac? Me?

I don't think anyone ITT has advocated banning groups of men.

obv I'm being hyperbolic too

sorry only one person at a time is allowed to be hyperbolic and it's me

I'm not offended by what you and Yerac said, silby – there's cathartic value in those kinds of statements, especially in this context. But man alive is no less right to point out that such discourse potentially reinforces the very thing it denounces.

guys yerac has repeatedly admitted she trolls about white men its ok we can take it

but perhaps dnftt

Having real friendships with women will help in not objectifying them into throwaway vessels for potential fucking. I don't even know what "traditional male energy" is without making a rude joke.

I'm not offended by what anyone ITT has said, love you all

Having real friendships with women will help in not objectifying them into throwaway vessels for potential fucking.

Was this directed at me? I've had "real friendships with women" all my life. What I said is that I tend to fall for them, not that I tend to perceive them as "throwawa vessels for potential fucking."

xpost yeah, I have historically been "lucky" in having really great white straight male friends that the bar being constantly set so low for them is frustrating. It doesn't have to be like that.

xpost Do you only hang out with straight men when you go out?

I don't often know who is straight and who isn't tbh.

xpost no, it was a generalization about men not having female friends and incels that have seemingly no attempts to want to have a relationship with women if it isn't romantic or balanced only towards them.

yeah, I mean I tend to have very much the opposite problem, I wind up attracted to women I am friends with with no initial intention of it becoming that way

I mean, not across the board or anything, that would be fucking weird

although your tendency to fall for your female friends is ??? I don't know you so???

ha xpost

*extremely millennial queer voice* just be poly dude

I am now looking up gay incels and i see this may need to be looked at another day.

Fight Club, AGAIN.

Try looking up 'femcels'.

I keep hearing a story that the "incel community" was (sort of accidentally) started by a woman

something along the lines of she started a message board and coined the term for people who feel unable to have sex although they would like to, but then left it behind and it morphed into what the term means now

yeah, i was just reading about that, it was less about being owed sex. It turned into this huge misogynist thing and the women got left behind.

I mean, a lot of slightly less hopeless versions of these guys wind up in groups like the Proud Boys. So my thought is always "can't we just come up with a version of the Proud Boys that doesn't also include racism, homophobia and misogyny?"

I mean this is basically the DSA lol

― resident hack (Simon H.), Tuesday, December 11, 2018 7:13 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

here's the thing though like -- with the decline of organized labor and the atomization of communities by way of the homeowner's american dream (settler colonialism with an aluminum siding face) and decline in religious involvement, america no longer has significant institutions that civically engage everyday people on a regular basis, and in the 70s and 80s that allowed the likes of the NRA or the pro-life movement to step in to fill that gap. look at say hahrie han's work on the pro-life movement that incredibly found that most self-ID'd members of the pro-life movement were actually pro-choice when they first joined a pro-life organization at the insistence of a friend. in france if they impose a shit tax your middle aged besuited union rep is gonna join you in the street to throw stones at the cops. if we're not careful the imposition of shit tax here is gonna mobilize _our_ equivalent civil society, and the right's civil society is exponentially more robust and relationally deep than any equivalent leftside organization. DSA is maybe among the closest things we've got, and that's fuckin terrifying.

xp yeah and that's still at the bottom of it, like if they didn't feel *owed* sex they might feel a little more motivated to do basic things that would make them a little more appealing to a potential partner?

also sorry for xposting a BOOMING post by HOOS

significant institutions that civically engage everyday people on a regular basis

facebook iirc

i mean yeah though, like, there's a reason political discussion on facebook groups is such an insane rabbit hole

https://medium.com/@IjeomaOluo/the-anger-of-the-white-male-lie-6f9a6e646d47?fbclid=IwAR3_asv4Sym8AAzvLge_8QW3L3N2aiegpuMu_UWCGCxRjHKrYHBA20Tq9AM

And in all these tales, these articles and movies and songs — white men are angry. Justifiably angry, because they were supposed to be so much more than this. But nobody explains why.

Why were they supposed to be so much more?

Why were they all supposed to have powerful or rewarding work? Why were they all supposed to have loving and beautiful wives? Why were they all supposed to be exempt from recessions or layoffs or just plain old bad luck?

Why were they supposed to have everything when everybody can see that there has never been enough everything to go around?

Being rejected by girls will be a valid reason as to why a white man drives his car into a group of women. Being laid off will be a valid reason as to why a white man opens fire in an office. Being “frustrated” will be a valid reason as to why a white man leaves bombs on the doorsteps of black families. Being unpopular will be a valid reason as to why a white man shoots up a school.

But living in systemic poverty with no job prospects won’t be a valid reason for why a black man sells loose cigarettes on the street. Being frustrated by constant harassment by police officers won’t be a valid reason for why a black woman refuses to put out her cigarette at a traffic stop. Living in a neighborhood with no jobs, no infrastructure, underfunded schools, and no dependable police presence won’t ever be considered a valid reason for higher crime rates in black and brown neighborhoods.

Because we were never supposed to expect any of those things. We were never supposed to expect jobs or police protection or investment in our communities or quality education. We were never supposed to expect to see ourselves in movies or read about our heroism in novels.

Whatever there was to expect — we weren’t supposed to expect any of it to come to us.

And white men expected more of it to come to them than ever existed.

^^^ I think about this piece often.

Hoos anti-choice vs pro-life ffs