Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

They think thats their core problem but it isn’t

Community is the key word in all of this. These are people who feel fundamentally alone. I'd bet that at some point some of these people have tried self help. But, there's a bootstrappy attitude to a lot of self-help literature (I read a lot of self-help literature) that is offputting because it downplays or ignores the social factor. Like, if you're depressed, it's all on you to save yourself. That's pretty alienating when what you're really looking for is support. And if your choice is between support and no support, you choose support, even if your support is a toxic cult of misogyny and self-loathing.

I mean, a lot of slightly less hopeless versions of these guys wind up in groups like the Proud Boys. So my thought is always "can't we just come up with a version of the Proud Boys that doesn't also include racism, homophobia and misogyny?"

I mean, I'm basically the equivalent of a functional posting addict. I have a job and a family and work out and generally live a normal life but there's def something missing that I am using posting as a quick fix for. And I think community is probably one word for it, and male community in particular.

I have no idea where this idea that having a romantic partner is going to be the fix to your personal problems and make you do constructive things with your life originated but it's horrible bullshit. You're not a charming old house someone's buying to fix up!

I mean, there is a small kernel to truth that people do end up creating life structures when they're trying to align their schedule, priorities, shared living space with someone else. But if you can't do any of that shit on your own semi-functionally, you're not going to do so with someone else.

Part of me wonders if it's some patriarchal shit where they lack the self esteem to do things for themselves and think being in some provider/husband/father role is going to suddenly give their lives meaning.

I think it started because being in love makes you feel good about yourself and like you can do things maybe you couldn't before. It is a fallacy, though.

being a husband, provider and father does give your life meaning. it's not the only thing that can do that, but it definitely does that.

I am really struck by how widespread the cluelessness abt incels is, almost everyone talking abt it doesn't get it at all and comes up with absurdly stupid advice which ofc they can feed on.

"I just told him to buy a pair of jeans—he had only ever worn slacks. Jeans are important in this age."

the incel worldview is way more thorough & robust than most ppl's, and in the face of that ppl just throw their hands in the air and cry 'therapy!'/'medicate!'/'round em up!'

What do you propose instead?

No snark, I'm genuinely curious.

there's something to be said for not having a thorough and robust world view, especially if you're cultivating it based on online reading and never leaving the house, or having a job with minimal interaction and not socializing irl beyond that. exactly how robust is that?

a bunch of the ideas that are being put forth in these online incel spaces are very much in favor of prescribed social roles, and limiting or at least decrying the choices others have in order to better serve their own perceived emotional and social needs!

it's not far from more heavy-handed religious views

Wtf are you talking about ogmor?

I mean, a lot of slightly less hopeless versions of these guys wind up in groups like the Proud Boys. So my thought is always "can't we just come up with a version of the Proud Boys that doesn't also include racism, homophobia and misogyny?"

I mean this is basically the DSA lol

the democratic socialists of america?

Shitting your pants on camera as a shock schtick and then killing yourself after isn't that robust. It's sad.

I think Simon just nailed what I find offputting about the DSA

I mean, they provide structure, community, and a set of explanations for some, if not all, societal ills. Plus they're well over half dudes, probably. xxp

I was kind of joking; I don't actually know that many people in DSA, but the ones I do know are all kinda bros

The broness quotient seems to vary a fair bit from chapter to chapter, to be fair.

Considering all the ones I know are women, I can't relate.

Thread is going a direction that reminds me of a prev discussion about approaches to dystopian apocalypse: in prepping for the collapse of civilization as we know it, do you go for the handgun or the hotdish? Ie individual violence or community building?

Maybe I'm over-simplifying but in trying to find a way to give life meaning and be part of something, have incels chosen the handgun? And perhaps you could say something like DSA chooses the hotdish--learning to be in community w people even if awkwardly?

I've already seen plenty of posts from former or recovering incels on lefty subreddits, so it's not completely hopeless out there. e.g.:

https://np.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/a0j8iq/how_do_i_escape_the_blackpill/

I think there's a point where the mentality transitions from "here's what I need to do to be a functioning person in the world" to "here are all the reasons why I'm justified in analyzing all these issues endlessly -- the world doesn't want me to be out there"

the colloquial phrase that comes to mind is "it's time to shit or get off the pot"

I do think the left needs to do a better job of recognizing the need for and positively channeling the "bro" impulse rather than dismissing or deriding it? I mean this is something I wrestle with a lot myself, because maybe it's hard to separate "positive" broiness from the negative aspects, but I think it's why stuff like Chapo exists and why the phenomenon of the DSA bro exists (even though as pointed out this varies and there are a lot of women getting very active in DSA right now).

I mean, there's something to disconnecting the idea of "bro" mentality (banter, jokeyness, etc) from the more harmful behaviors or attitudes (put downs, sexism, acting like a chive reader or sarcastic 90s stereotype) because the former can be irritating and sometimes sexist in action, but the latter is more about shaping a certain mentality

maybe the two can't be divorced? I can't say

chapo being termed "bro'y" shows the very wide net that term casts. they're a gaggle of brooklyn nerds.

Yeah I think we need an alternative, non-gender-essentialist model for male friendship. Post-bro (jk, please never use this term). FWIW, I'm speaking from the perspective of a straight guy who is kind of uncomfortable around groups of other straight guys.

what makes you uncomfortable around groups of straight guys as opposed to groups of non-straight guys or straight non-guys?

or non-straight non-guys obv

Good question! I don't even know. It's just kind of a weird gut-level discomfort? I think it's just the residual effect of "other straight dudes" generally being the people who have treated me the worst in life, compared to other folks. Like, my guard goes up around them until they can prove they aren't out to do me harm, in a way it doesn't around other people.

Male camaraderie is not bad. We can’t afford to do without it when suicide rates and opioid addiction and hikkikomori type isolation is running rampant among the bros.

Also the word bro should be reclaimed. It shouldn’t have these connotations of fraternities and their sexism.

you could just call your male friends "brother" if you really want to, I guess

A group of straight dudes out together becomes performatively terrible. Plus what straight dudes only hang out with other straight dudes these days unless it's a bachelor party?

ilx cant rly give a fair shake to bros or masculinity

Yerac, what does performatively terrible mean?

Basically "fratty dad humor". Under what circumstance would you go out with only other straight men as a group these days?

And this is assuming most people posting are near, if not way over, 30.

What if we don't do fratty dad humour?

all genderalisations are false.

xpost Do you only hang out with straight men when you go out?

i shoud've put fratty/dad humor because it spans two different types.

Sometimes I hang out with my straight male friends? Go to a bar, catch a movie. The same things I do with my female friends and gay male friends?

What?

No, I don't only hang out with straight men when I go out, but it does happen on occasion, like when we haven't seen each other in a long time and their SOs are too busy to join us. We don't consciously get together as straight dudes to do 'straight dude' stuff. Why would you assume that?

I don't know any straight people

This is going back to (zchyrs) statement on him being uncomfortable around other groups of straight guys. I was backing this up because groups of only straight guys are pretty terrible once in a setting where they feed off of each others' bad behaviour or silently condone it.

I get what you're saying and some guys do that, yeah, but blanket statements aren't very helpful imho.

I “get” what you’re saying too but I actually find it extremely offensive.