Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

yes

there's definitely a part of me that just screams "take away his goddamn computer and kick him out of the house" but I don't think any of these situations start with the guy who never leaves his room

Women are raised and are pressured to be conciliatory. I hate socializing but it's ingrained in me to be a host and to make sure all other people are comfortable. I was never allowed to hide out in my room.

I keep thinking of two people I know where, as far as I know, they never got into this rhetoric but definitely have a bit of the shut-in w/a computer mentality

one is my cousin who is a bright guy, but socially awkward and probably on the autism spectrum. we'd get along great when I saw him a few times a year as a kid, talking about all kinds of computer and video game stuff. he was a great student, went to college and graduated with near a 4.0 in computer science, and then moved back to his parents' basement and... that's it. he's nearly 35 now, and maybe helps out at his family's store. I have no idea wtf he does other than that

the other is a good friend of mine who was a college roommate. also a computer science guy, one of the most talented programmers I've known. while he'd be in his apartment alone in front of a computer, he'd be working remotely with a team -- he was always a good collaborator and went to grad school and later got a few pretty cool jobs. he got married this year! his wife is almost hyper-social and just as motivated as he is. as far as I know his online socialization was always about *finding projects to do* and that's a key difference

there's something to the insularity of these incel dudes being about a lack of focus beyond their own situation

some of this doesn't seem far off the reasons why I take a break from, or at least have attempted to attenuate, my engagement with social media.

I was thinking the same. In some respects, this looks somewhat similar to my own dysfunctionality. I'm not sure that the amount of time I spend absorbed in my laptop screen would look much less creepy to an outside observer. And I've certainly had the experience of becoming financially dependent on a parent and not knowing how to break out of it. I don't think this is uncommon in our generation.

I would just say, yes I know ilx loves to find commonalities and I'm not trying to discourage self-reflection, but I also think there's a significant difference between "parents helped me for a while in between jobs/during illness/etc" and what's in that article.

this really is like an analogue to anorexia isn't it? it's a modern mental illness and it self-perpetuates and abets itself as with those pro-ana websites

Right. They have a distorted worldview because they’re depressed and have convinced themselves they are repulsive. (That’s what this is ultimately about—it takes an aggrieved misogynistic form but ultimately what they believe is they are not just unfuckable but unlovable). They find a community that reinforces that worldview. They withdraw into it and become a prisoner of their illness.

It sounds like a living hell.

I often think about the sheer wrongness of Charles Olson's 'What does not change / is the will to change' of late.

Cults and hate groups (that’s what these are) are now able to recruit people rifjt from their living rooms or, with smartphones, from a machine that may as well be fused to their eyeballs. These are fucked up times.

Have been reading *Her Body and Other Parties* and *Throw Like A Girl* just arrived in the mail -- excited to start it.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, October 26, 2018 3:49 PM (one month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yo Throw Like A Girl is one of the most important single books I think I've read on feminism -- it's unfortunately absent any explicit thoughts on trans people but does acknowledge it has a limited focus in the interest of clarity, and gosh the clarity. i feel like i have new clear language to articulate some of the specific problems of women's objectification and concomitant denial of subjectivity, and how that's borne out in everyday inner and outer life experience. recommended despite the kinda academic-philosophy density.

multi-xp I think my fear is that the difference is, in some cases, literally "parents helped me for a while and I fell into a rabbit hole of these self-destructive forums and stopped trying"

there are definitely people more predisposed to this line of thought but it's reminding me of a recent article about how iceland diminished their youth smoking/drinking/drug use rates by funding a bunch of recreational and educational programs. people literally have no outlet for their energy so they end up whiling it away

not that I'm saying taking up football is any better than having a beer down at the pub, but a lot of habits that bleed away energy that are easier/more accessible are self-destructive just by their nature

Playing football (soccer) is definitely a better use of time than drinking alcohol

I wonder how Japan deals with its hikikomori (if it does at all).

imo alcohol is fine because you can drink it in moderation and read books at the same time

alcohol helps you meet and talk to members of the opposite sex too, I mean, it's true

and sometimes the same sex

yes ofc, but I'm not sure but most of these dudes are complaining about women making their lives a misery

Being an incel online seems quite a lot like spending all day at the pub tbh, same sort of false sense of community based on misery.

The difference is they’ve built an ideology around their misery.

discussion about the philosophical aspect of the self-identified "incel" is beyond my capacity, so i will not comment on that.

however, i keep coming back to the thought that this guy needs treatment -- preferably inpatient. the smoking for days on end in the sunless studio apartment that his mom pays for is prolonging his misery. he needs to have his brain retrained, like someone with any other profoundly self-destructive habit. it's sad but i can't get lost in the details of what he does and doesn't believe -- all i can see is a person who needs competent professional help.

I agree totally.

For sure, it's just that he appears to have seen quite a few shrinks already.

I haven't read it yet but there's another Vice piece that approaches the issue from a therapeutical angle:

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/435g9p/how-to-help-an-incel-sex-therapist

They seem to have just thrown medication at him. I think LL is right that he needs inpatient treatment like an addict or someone with a life threatening eating disorder. This cycle Of behavior just needs to be broken before any other steps can be taken.

How to help an incel sex therapist

"seeing a shrink" is not inpatient treatment

Sorry, missed that part.

“He understands being this meme guy is totally shameful and he hates himself for that, but he also loves it because it is all he has or cares about.”

i feel like this cuts to it

I remember reading some research about certain kinds of disorders that just don't respond well to individual therapy and really require groups. And I think that would make a lot of sense here -- he needs a positive support group to replace the kind of negative support group he has created. That and some kind of productive activity to occupy himself, a job to go to, the gym, etc. That's sort of the problem with the "treatment" model of dealing with these kinds of things, the disease model of disorder. Many disorders have strong societal and social aspects and require actual life changes to "treat" them. It's not something you can fix in a couple hours a week with a therapist and a pill.

A job would be a good idea for this guy.

Certain disorders don't respond especially well to any therapy btw. (xp)

My brother in law totally got "kidnapped" into one of those months long wilderness rehab camps when he was a teenager because he was having similar issues.

Just read the second article. Sounds frighteningly similar to a friend of mine, down to the line about how 'nobody likes Asian men according to statistics from Match.com, so no one will ever date him'.

i can only hope that the person who develops an inpatient treatment program for incels is not a money-grubbing charlatan and actually cares about helping them function in society.

And aside from what would "treat" these particular men, I think there is a larger problem of a lack of positive social outlets for men.

The wilderness camp that my bil stayed at for several months (like years and years ago) ended up being good for him. No internet or gaming, forced to talk with everyone in the group, make meals together, learn functional skills, exercise. He's super into fitness now (he had stopped going to school because of body image issues).

I think they shouldn’t be thought of as “incels.” They’re people with social avoidance symptoms who fell into a trap of an online hate community. There are people with similar issues —social withdrawal via online interaction—who aren’t part of these communities and need similar treatment. Being unlucky in love doesn’t make them special it makes them like almost everyone else

They think thats their core problem but it isn’t

Community is the key word in all of this. These are people who feel fundamentally alone. I'd bet that at some point some of these people have tried self help. But, there's a bootstrappy attitude to a lot of self-help literature (I read a lot of self-help literature) that is offputting because it downplays or ignores the social factor. Like, if you're depressed, it's all on you to save yourself. That's pretty alienating when what you're really looking for is support. And if your choice is between support and no support, you choose support, even if your support is a toxic cult of misogyny and self-loathing.

I mean, a lot of slightly less hopeless versions of these guys wind up in groups like the Proud Boys. So my thought is always "can't we just come up with a version of the Proud Boys that doesn't also include racism, homophobia and misogyny?"

I mean, I'm basically the equivalent of a functional posting addict. I have a job and a family and work out and generally live a normal life but there's def something missing that I am using posting as a quick fix for. And I think community is probably one word for it, and male community in particular.

I have no idea where this idea that having a romantic partner is going to be the fix to your personal problems and make you do constructive things with your life originated but it's horrible bullshit. You're not a charming old house someone's buying to fix up!

I mean, there is a small kernel to truth that people do end up creating life structures when they're trying to align their schedule, priorities, shared living space with someone else. But if you can't do any of that shit on your own semi-functionally, you're not going to do so with someone else.

Part of me wonders if it's some patriarchal shit where they lack the self esteem to do things for themselves and think being in some provider/husband/father role is going to suddenly give their lives meaning.

I think it started because being in love makes you feel good about yourself and like you can do things maybe you couldn't before. It is a fallacy, though.

being a husband, provider and father does give your life meaning. it's not the only thing that can do that, but it definitely does that.

I am really struck by how widespread the cluelessness abt incels is, almost everyone talking abt it doesn't get it at all and comes up with absurdly stupid advice which ofc they can feed on.

"I just told him to buy a pair of jeans—he had only ever worn slacks. Jeans are important in this age."

the incel worldview is way more thorough & robust than most ppl's, and in the face of that ppl just throw their hands in the air and cry 'therapy!'/'medicate!'/'round em up!'

What do you propose instead?

No snark, I'm genuinely curious.

there's something to be said for not having a thorough and robust world view, especially if you're cultivating it based on online reading and never leaving the house, or having a job with minimal interaction and not socializing irl beyond that. exactly how robust is that?

a bunch of the ideas that are being put forth in these online incel spaces are very much in favor of prescribed social roles, and limiting or at least decrying the choices others have in order to better serve their own perceived emotional and social needs!

it's not far from more heavy-handed religious views