one out all out: a brexit from the modern world and every one of its problems please (we're all gonna die lol)

Anti-intellectualism predates even the Conservative Party.

... in this country. You know which country I mean.

xp yes, I’m aware of this (not sure why you felt that needed saying considering it’s specific to this context and what’s being discussed about public impatience with this but w/e).

Not sure why you felt that needed commenting on but w/e.

modern political thought
TS: rod liddle vs a.c.grayling

in conclusion: i am entirely happy to blame english anti-intellectualism on the role of the tories in UK political life since the 17th century

Yeah you’re right, that was a bit snappish at a benign point, Tom. Sorry.

"Get the fucking thing over and move on" is a lie to dwarf the red bus. If we do this, this is all we're doing for the next decade.

Thing is, that doesn't actually matter as far as far as public opinion is concerned. People by and large don't care about the details of agricultural policy being hammered out in Brussels boardrooms, it's the ongoing Westminster soap opera they will tire of. That fatigue could translate into 'just leave with no deal and get on with it' 'just vote through the deal and get on with it' or even 'fuck it, remain in the EU and move on'. Or a mixture of all three.

It's the same with austerity - clearly enough people bought into the Cameron/Osborne line to deliver the Tories a majority in 2015. By the time IDS had resigned the following year it was obvious that was dead in the water and the 2017 election (and maybe the referendum itself) confirmed that. Because the Tories had promised the deficit would be eliminated in one Parliament, people mentally turned the page at the end of it, to them that was the end of the chapter. When it became clear that austerity would continue for years, that's when the backlash occurred.

Even if the difficult work has only just begun, people will be sick to the back teeth of hearing about Brexit before too long, if they aren't already. If she was smart enough and had enough powers of persuasion that might help swing the argument in her favour - unfortunately neither of those things appear to be the case.

Yeah you’re right, that was a bit snappish at a benign point, Tom. Sorry.

No worries, we're not quite as frazzled as poor old US ILXors yet but on the way there...

Just reading this Peston post is fatiguing and that's for someone reasonably engaged with the debate. Imagine how the wider public will react if it plays out like this:

https://m.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2219151871742879/

It's also why Labour committing to a second referendum now, rather than after the vote, would possibly enable May to bounce enough MPs into supporting her deal.

OT can I just say that after a nice holiday it's been a joy reading about Blobby and all from you fine people in this fine thread (and I'm glad it's one single thread still).

if the Tory MPs who currently say they back a plebiscite stick to their guns

*HUGE KLAXON AND FLASHING RED LIGHTS*

It's more likely that at some point in that chain of events the wetter Tory Brexiters lose patience and actually do force a vote of no confidence.

What a way to fuck with people's xmas break...I have a kind of admiration for our politicians.

we're here because historically there has been nothing that Tory "moderates" have not been prepared to concede to their right wing if the alternative is breaking the party. we're off the map, tbf, but the likeliest bet is always "don't expect any last minute heroics from these pitiful gobshites"

Has anyone turned this into a flowchart yet? I get hauled over the coals at work for writing emails like that Peston post, when people would prefer a flowchart. Let's get ready to rhombus.

That would have swung the argument in her favour, but by the same lights it'd be a bit of pyrrhic victory - if the austerity backlash was bad (and nowhere near bad enough), the Brexit backlash would be catastrophic for them when both sides finally clock it's a) shit b) neverending. xxp to Matt

*opens Microsoft Visio* hell yeah!

Whenever someone claims The Thick of It is not a documentary, show them this: pic.twitter.com/22Ua7j7GGw

— Shehab Khan (@ShehabKhan) November 27, 2018

Funnily enough there would probably be a vote of no confidence if Theresa May won a substantial majority at the General election. The EU deal would have been the same surely, and the Tories could then indulge themselves...as it is they cannot and its very much a last option that would have a new leader in place with a plan.

I suspect that in that case the deal would have involved quietly carving off NI.

xp disagree - part of the motivation in calling an early election was to win enough new MPs to marginalise the ERG and the rest. No majority = every vote matters & therefore can’t just write off fringe views.

Also great work in that clip from *checks notes* one of Darragh's brothers.

If she were to somehow win a substantial majority there would be enough grateful new MPs to ensure she survived a vote. FWIW this is the least likely of all the weird fantasy options that have been discussed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46366162 Ah, but who will be poorer? And who will be richer?

Even I, a card-carrying remoaner cunt, can hear the deafening chorus of wanking in the back of this one:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-deal-vote-no-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-queen-remain-mps-new-coalition-government-a8655586.html

Given that McDonnell has pretty much committed Labour to the second referendum option that doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure today was the best time to make that comment, given that it might have the effect of bouncing enough Tory Brexiters into voting through the deal. That said, only a couple need to rebel to sink it altogether.

I wish everyone would stop referring to the economy being 2.9% (or whatever) smaller. Like any brexiteer is going to give a shit. Most of them probably think that’s a vindication.

Most of them probably think that’s a vindication massive opportunity for their hedge fund.

The Labour Party has tabled an amendment to the meaningful vote designed to stop the UK leaving the EU without a deal pic.twitter.com/QxZupuYbDv

— Adam Payne (@adampayne26) November 28, 2018

good luck uk

The angle they're taking there is interesting. Corbyn did well in the last campaign by directly linking terrorism to police cuts, which enabled Labour to decouple the issue from immigration - where it sits in the mind of enough voters to potentially swing an election (or a Brexit referendum). They're doing the same thing here, a way that makes it *look* like they're pulling the New Labour trick of attacking the Tories from the right, without actually doing so.

Ongoing Maybotic Parliamentary Committee trainwreck right now.

Not sure what that Lab amendment actually means.

Not vote for the WA I get (although not business for an amendment, but whatever). Avoid no deal I get. But apart from that?

It says 'do something else' but seems to forget this negotiation is not a binary process - the EU are involved too and they're currently fighting to defend against unilateral choices on A50. (I know that's about withdrawing from the process and not extending but the same logic applies.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46345287

Labour have met the EU on several occasions so assume they know what’s possible, and the EU have indicated that they support extending or even withdrawing a50 a number of times.

So have the Scottish Government, who are the other party in the litigation I linked. So have the ERG, who are not dissuaded from their path.

It's almost like everyone who meets the EU comes away happy from their discussions and is told there are no obstacles to what they want.

Weird, I could have sworn that the EU’s intransigence was being blamed for this whole debacle the past two years. Must have imagined the whole thing.

...what?

Tomorrow's front page: House prices would plunge by 30% as Britain falls into recession in brutal No Deal Brexit, Bank of England warns https://t.co/qO0whglB5h pic.twitter.com/JuhTnk5S4l

— The Sun (@TheSun) November 28, 2018

xp I think there's a difference between official negotiators making binding decisions on behalf of an organisation and members of said organisation meeting lobbyists for tea in their office.

cake and eat it headline from the Sun there

bomb the sun

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46386737

Mr Corbyn claimed he preferred ITV's bid because the BBC plan clashed with the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!

"I want to watch it myself," he said.

lol

the people’s champion

Groups that need representing in the debate:
Hard Remain
Semi Remain
Proto Federalist
Half in Half Out
People's Vote
Continuity Remain
OFOC
Reluctant Leave (left)
Remain But Racist
[Chuka's Position]
Full Lexit
Mild Lexit
Tory Leave
Hard Leave
Fully Erect, Throbbing Veiny Leave

— Woke Bane QC (@banebutwoke) November 29, 2018

"Remain But Racist (Chuka's Position)" was a Billy Joel b-side from the late 70s iirc

I fell asleep in front of the box tonight, but could have sworn I saw the brillo pad looking on as Ulrika talked up Sweden's noble history of neutrality. Probably need to go to bed.

Also great work in that clip from *checks notes* one of Darragh's brothers.

― Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 27 November 2018 15:08 (three days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

not a bad shout, an amalgamation of em maybe

which i admit is pretty impressive as a demo of neolib ideology

Sweden being a nobly neutral country is pretty funny to me. Probably less funny to Poland.