one out all out: a brexit from the modern world and every one of its problems please (we're all gonna die lol)

Labour argues for article 50 extension if Brexit deal voted down https://t.co/cQkxY7zxZs

— Guardian politics (@GdnPolitics) November 26, 2018

So is this then a reason for the DUP to back May's plan?

Not at all, considering May has always been the one to blink first previously. But they are also under considerable pressure from many of their own constituents (incl business community) to support the deal and considering how everything’s gone so far...¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess if you were an accelerationist you might think a prospective or actual PM who’s on the record as supporting a United Ireland might cause their support to cleave closer to them though.

Oh, also:

Boris Johnson is facing accusations of hypocrisy after a letter leaked to The Times revealed that he gave his reluctant blessing to checks on trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland while he was foreign secretary https://t.co/08EOfRzXzb

— The Times of London (@thetimes) November 26, 2018

'boris johnson' and 'allegations of hypocrisy' are basically synonymous at this point

Oh absolutely but he’s not the one being embarrassed here.

Hope you're all stoked for a festive Brexit TV debate between May and Corbyn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cringe_comedy

If I was Corbz I'd be extremely wary of the fact that May, who has run away from every TV debate up to now, is taking the initiative on this one. Seems to me the intention will be to expose the many ambiguities and grey areas in the official Labour position and to try and spook enough Labour MPs to vote the deal through.

Difficult to see what Corbyn would gain here unless May really chokes it (and she's likely to have a better grasp of the detail for obvious reasons). I guess he wants to try and hammer her on domestic policy, which could work but could also make him look evasive.

Whether the British public will be excited for a debate on a subject they don't get a vote on right in the middle of the prime-time Christmas TV schedule is another matter.

"Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable demanded to be involved as well..."

I'd forgotten the LDs had a leader.

May is so very bad at this type of thing outside of the playground safe-space of Parliament where she can get away with all sorts of dubious statements. So obviously she feels Corbyn is on shaky enough ground here to make some political capital. Obv I hope the gamble completely backfires, be fucked if I'm watching it though.

That does look like his angle:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/labour-to-block-peoples-vote-taking-part-in-brexit-tv-debate-jeremy-corbyn

However, Downing Street’s desire for a peak slot may come against the brutal reality of TV schedules. The prime minister’s team want the largest possible audience for such a debate, but the only logistically possible Sunday night that could work is 9 December, which could bring its own problems if they wish to appear on one of the biggest terrestrial channels.

That evening, BBC One is set to show Countryfile, the season finales of Doctor Who and David Attenborough’s Dynasties, plus Strictly Come Dancing and a new drama by Jimmy McGovern. Meanwhile, ITV will be showing the final of I’m a Celebrity … Get Me Out of Here.

It is unlikely that a sceptical audience settling down for Sunday night viewing would welcome any of the shows being interrupted or delayed, even for a political debate that could shape the future of Britain.

Actual lol.

The last time she confronted Corbyn "head on" we ended up with the DUP running the country, how bad can it be this time?

She didn't confront him head on a TV debate though, she sent Amber Rudd instead a few days after her dad had died.

Potentially the single biggest thing in May's favour is the 'get the fucking thing over with and move on' factor, which I suspect is going to get bigger and bigger as we move into next year.

Think they could get away with dropping Countryfile.

Ah yes, the PM always benefits from *checks notes* greater exposure to the public.

Tragically will be out of the country for this mess but fully expect it not to happen.

would be one way of stacking the audience certainly xp

It would be OK, ratings wise, if they both came onstage singing the J&MC song "Head On"

Corbyn:
"As soon as I get my head around you
I come around catching sparks off you
I get an electric shock from you
This secondhand living just won't do.. "

May:
"And the way I feel tonight
I could die and I wouldn't mind
And there's something going on inside.."

Both:
"Makes you want to feel
Makes you want to try
Makes you want to blow the stars from the sky
And I can't stand up
I can't cool down
I can't get my head off the ground"

Possibly the PM's team might want to think twice about scheduling immediately before or after a documentary about a pack of hyenas.

Potentially the single biggest thing in May's favour is the 'get the fucking thing over with and move on' factor, which I suspect is going to get bigger and bigger as we move into next year.

So true and so depressing.

Theresa May's spokesman says the Prime Minister has been clear if her Brexit deal is voted down by Parliament it will cause a period of uncertainty

— Sky News Breaking (@SkyNewsBreak) November 26, 2018

"breaking"

I don't think this will happen (though feverish preparations are underway). The only way it'd be good for May is if she can scope it really tightly to the detail of the deal, which she knows backwards (and Corbyn doesn't, as proved in PMQs). Labour knows this and will want to make it a wide-ranging thing that will comfortably be easier for Corbyn.

Stephen Bush had a good point this morning: the only way this deal passes is with Labour votes. Regardless whether she wins or loses in a head-to-head debate, the nature of it polarises the thing and makes it harder for potential Labour rebels to support her. Certainly not in the apparently enormous numbers required.

"Get the fucking thing over and move on" is a lie to dwarf the red bus. If we do this, this is all we're doing for the next decade.

still irritable abt the guardian headline abt labour "blocking" the "people's vote" re the tv debate, like the evident right of a medium-sized* very-recently-formed very-narrow-single-issue pressure group to stand on full-reach TV alongside representatives of actually elected parties is somehow written into magna carta and only a cynical foolish knave could disrespect this unwritten constitutional rule

*being very generous**
**i mean PV is allowed to bluster this way, that's its job, kind of -- making sometimes-absurd noise to gain attention -- but as ever fuck the guardian in this reach of its activities

might've been fun watching them argue about who gets to represent them tho

I’m an FBPE… Get Me Out of Here

good point, it's the party leaders debate who else is supposed to get a platform? I presume May is also "blocking" the ERG from this discussion if it needed to be said in the first place.

The people’s vote crowd are an utter shambles and are damaging to their own cause ffs. Just utter embarrassments.

"breaking: ilx brexit posters calz deems and farrell also blocked from TV debate"

one of the very few good decisions made since the brexit vote imo

Thing is, this isn't a debate about whether or not we Brexit at all - it's just a debate about the deal itself, a deal no one watching has any say in, so it's entirely about trying to shift Parliament in some way.

At least in standard TV debates the public get a vote at the end of it. This is just a pointless sideshow so yeah let anyone take part as far as I'm concerned.

bloke out of Wheatus is available

But is key player Blobby?

these debates are a bad idea if the PM is in control of when and how they happen

just like Brexit

Hello, this is container 100419100011112 in Sheffield, United Kingdom. Based on my fill-up history, I expect to be full on Saturday, December 8th 2018.

— Trashcan Life (@trashcanlife) November 26, 2018

"Get the fucking thing over and move on" is a lie to dwarf the red bus. If we do this, this is all we're doing for the next decade.

otm

there's a lot of talk of this as May's "Brexit deal", and not so much of how this is just the withdrawal agreement, and the next stage still has to be fought over

I know everyone here knows this but I think there's a lot of people who are going to be saying "we already did this, why is it still on the telly?", as well as all the people who've already spent 2.5 years going "we had a vote, should've just walked out, end of" etc

Will only watch if Cameron is in stocks and public are throwing rotten veg at him.

Besides the obvious, so much of this comes back to things caused by Tories. The vicious behaviour of the press - enabled and in many cases inflated by Tories (remember Rudd refusing to condemn the Mail front page with the 13 Tory rebels last year in parliament?)

There’s also the abject lack of, as far as I can tell, any political education in this country. The anti-intellectualism streak that’s the root of all the “get on with it” shite has been nurtured by them for their own gain for years too.

The vicious behaviour of the press - enabled and in many cases inflated by Tories

rip jo cox

Anti-intellectualism predates even the Conservative Party.

... in this country. You know which country I mean.

xp yes, I’m aware of this (not sure why you felt that needed saying considering it’s specific to this context and what’s being discussed about public impatience with this but w/e).

Not sure why you felt that needed commenting on but w/e.

modern political thought
TS: rod liddle vs a.c.grayling

in conclusion: i am entirely happy to blame english anti-intellectualism on the role of the tories in UK political life since the 17th century

Yeah you’re right, that was a bit snappish at a benign point, Tom. Sorry.

"Get the fucking thing over and move on" is a lie to dwarf the red bus. If we do this, this is all we're doing for the next decade.

Thing is, that doesn't actually matter as far as far as public opinion is concerned. People by and large don't care about the details of agricultural policy being hammered out in Brussels boardrooms, it's the ongoing Westminster soap opera they will tire of. That fatigue could translate into 'just leave with no deal and get on with it' 'just vote through the deal and get on with it' or even 'fuck it, remain in the EU and move on'. Or a mixture of all three.

It's the same with austerity - clearly enough people bought into the Cameron/Osborne line to deliver the Tories a majority in 2015. By the time IDS had resigned the following year it was obvious that was dead in the water and the 2017 election (and maybe the referendum itself) confirmed that. Because the Tories had promised the deficit would be eliminated in one Parliament, people mentally turned the page at the end of it, to them that was the end of the chapter. When it became clear that austerity would continue for years, that's when the backlash occurred.

Even if the difficult work has only just begun, people will be sick to the back teeth of hearing about Brexit before too long, if they aren't already. If she was smart enough and had enough powers of persuasion that might help swing the argument in her favour - unfortunately neither of those things appear to be the case.

Yeah you’re right, that was a bit snappish at a benign point, Tom. Sorry.

No worries, we're not quite as frazzled as poor old US ILXors yet but on the way there...

Just reading this Peston post is fatiguing and that's for someone reasonably engaged with the debate. Imagine how the wider public will react if it plays out like this:

https://m.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2219151871742879/

It's also why Labour committing to a second referendum now, rather than after the vote, would possibly enable May to bounce enough MPs into supporting her deal.