one out all out: a brexit from the modern world and every one of its problems please (we're all gonna die lol)

I think I asked you about this last time - I didn't get you then either.

Putting No Deal on a ballot paper in the first place would be fundamentally irresponsible. In any case, hardly anyone in Westminster wants it, although those that do make a disproportionate amount of noise and shouldn't be validated in that way in the first place.

"Classicism walks; neo-classicism marches."
"Neo-classicism is classicism doing its military service."
"The neo-classical colonnade conceals the door to the armoury."
"Classicism: armies have bands. Neo-classicism:bands have armies."

Etc.
(Ian Hamilton Finlay, 'Some (Short) Thoughts on Neo-classicism)

Theresa May's spokesman says UK position is that "no deal is better than a bad deal." When asked about Liam Fox's comments that "a deal is better than no deal," he replies "we have been consistent on this throughout."

— Adam Bienkov (@AdamBienkov) November 20, 2018

Without the public repudiation of No Deal, it’ll fester for a generation as this great thing that could have been, and for which the public voted, if ‘we’ hadn’t had our hands tied by the conniving politicians.

I mean, I would definitely like if a love of representative democracy swelled in the heart of every man, but that’s been on a downswing for the last 15 years.

Who says ilx is a nice way of killing the boring hours at work when I can fantasize about a 2nd ref instead.

I like to fantasize about endlessly recursive referendums, each more legitimate than the last.

Just savouring all the details, like the sequence of events by which it happens, choices on the ballot, the campaign (the return of Banks and Farage to the frontlines), and then how art50 is eventually turned back and we can get back to giving Wales billions of euros they don't want. Some centrist prick could write it as an MR James style ghost story just in time for Xmas.

Or it could be Rambo II ('this time we win') but that's not classy enough.

I look forward to reading both your posts when the referendum happens. Ideally pictures of your faces would be great too.

Permanent scowls and smelling a fart

I'll be laughing and wearing a "Referendum 3: Back in Training" t-shirt hopefully

Xyzzz - serious question, if it became a viable proposition, with a realistic chance of Remain winning, would you support it?

Let's say for the sake of argument that Corbyn was in favour, when we all know the reason you're pouring scorn on this is that he currently isn't and it's being used against him.

In the future people will look back aghast at how a big chunk of the British left decided to turn its back on the idea of freedom of movement because Caitlin Moran and Ian Dunt were annoying on Twitter.

Some of us are pretty aghast and disgusted about it right now tbh

Still, am sure the kind of internet hardmanning that "wins" arguments on message boards and twitter will soon start delivering election wins too

This really isn’t what’s happening.

Obviously nobody will be aghast at the idea that you could tell millions of voters that their decision doesn't count because it was wrong, or that you can maintain political credibility by having a do over until you get the result you like

This is kind of the problem with all referendums though isn't it? Millions of people voted for the Tories in 2015 and that doesn't mean you couldn't tell them they were wrong, or revisit the decision at a future date. People's minds change.

I still think a second referendum is pie in the sky thinking at this point, and the potential for Remain losing it is high in any case, but things are changing very rapidly right now.

I was being facetious with the penultimate post, but at this stage in the game it's pretty dumb to pretend this is all about smug centrists feeling put out, when the people who will be shafted hardest will, almost inevitably, be poor immigrants.

Obviously a fair chunk of the smug centrists haven't helped themselves by suggesting it's basically fine to parrot the controls-on-immigration line again out of some fantasy of having Remain without free movement.

I think yes of course people should continue to campaign to reverse this decision, but there are better and worse ways of achieving it, and the wishful thinking and fumbling for political sleight of hand tricks is absolutely unhelpful.

Obviously personally I find it somewhere between amusing and infuriating that *this* has been the mental breaking point for a lot of people who weren't too shook up by decades of Thatcherism and its Blairite diet implementation but fuck it, what else should I have expected?

Matt - we all know that this isn't a viable proposition right now. Have you seen anything but jokes on the #peoplesvote hash?

Even so, what are the chances the vote conclusively backs remain with three choices on the ballot, and does so at 60%? (we all know the other side would want another one if it wasn't conclusive)

Brexit almost certainly has to happen in some way first. Xxxp

Obviously a fair chunk of the smug centrists haven't helped themselves by suggesting it's basically fine to parrot the controls-on-immigration line again out of some fantasy of having Remain without free movement.

This is literally the line being trotted out today by Alan Johnson in the Guardian and Ian Dunt on twitter. Personally I’m sick to fucking death of this shit, particularly as it comes the day after the PM decided to say that EU citizens had been jumping the queue. Rather than make the case for freedom of movement and strong regulations for employers, they’re throwing immigrants under the bus again. Fuck ‘em. They never challenge the rhetoric and campaigning for a second vote while continuing to scapegoat immigrants is fucking dangerous and irresponsible.

Thatcherism is going to look quaint and cuddly by comparison with what the Tories are going to be able to do with all this new found freedom. It's one reason why Corbyn is right to be hammering this 'Brexit that protects workers rights' line, even if it is delusional (broadly speaking, you can't keep the bits of Brexit that might be nice while pretending all the ugly stuff that drove it doesn't exist).

For now, discussion of the deal has been largely focused on trade, the point where it shifts to immigration is going to be ugly.

That Ian Dunt thread makes no sense, he's saying New Labour types need to drop that anti-immigration Remain stuff because it's awful, but also says there needs to be some reactionary stuff in there to make reactionary types feel better. And the EU wouldn't allow any of the proposals anyway.

I mean, this is just fucking stupid:

That 'firm control of immigration' drive can live alongside the kind that encourages a youth vote, with young activist campaigners celebrating free movement.

— Ian Dunt (@IanDunt) November 20, 2018

You are assuming this government would survive for a while post-Brexit. Not saying they would collapse either but Thatcher worked with big majorities.

They're clearly going to get back in at some point, perhaps sooner rather than later if Labour inherit an economic clusterfuck that they can't turn round.

But somewhere in that mix, there does need to be an offer on immigration which can peel off at least 10-20% of Leavers.

presumably Dunt has a plan for working out the 20% least racist

I wouldn't be so sure the public would trust the party who led the country to the abyss to somehow sort it out after a Corbyn govt fails or whatever.

I wouldn't be so sure the public would trust the party who led the country to the abyss to somehow sort it out after a Corbyn govt fails or whatever.

This seems ahistorical at best

Black Wednesday is often seen as part of the reason the Conservatives didn't get in until 2010, and that was under a coalition.

The exact same line of attack is often used against Labour and was effective for most of the 80s and post-2008.

Claiming that the referendum outcome legitimises this shitshow is nonsensical. There isn’t a Leave voter out there who would recognise either crash-out or the current deal as “what they voted for”.

There will be an incoherent sense of betrayal regardless of what happens next, so I don’t see why avoiding that should be the guiding light. Especially if it leads to a result virtually nobody is in favour of.

“Keep asking the question until you get the right result” is just lazily and negligently handwaving away one of the few democractically affirmative ways out of this.

It’s a damn sight better than “we tried and couldn’t make an extremist minority happy so now we have to have the apocalypse it’s the only way sry I don’t make the rules”

xp to xyyyzzz and MDC: I hope you're right - it seems that the blame for financial malfeasance typically and unjustly sticks more stubbornly to Labour than to the Tories; Black Wednesday, etc, hasn't seemed to discredit rapacious capitalism. But who the fuck knows at this point - Brexit looks like it will be an unprecedented game-changer, and perhaps the blame will stick on those who are to blame this time around.

There is a lot of work into saying the conservatives would be able to somehow re-make the UK (again, and in a potential post-Brexit crash that may happen under them) in the way they wanted when they actually managed to lose the small majority they've had before Brexit has even happened.

The Tories have proved themselves to be extremely adept at causing vast amounts of damage with little or no majority. It's kind of their thing.

Claiming that the referendum outcome legitimises this shitshow is nonsensical. There isn’t a Leave voter out there who would recognise either crash-out or the current deal as “what they voted for”.

No, but there’s a lot of them screaming to “just walk away” purely motivated by spite, and enough MPs out there saying the same thing to cast this as a legitimate viewpoint.

6/ Britain is completely divided on where to go from here:
Accept the deal - 16%
Seek new deal - 11%
Ref on terms of deal - 8%
No deal Brexit - 19%
Remain in EU - 28%https://t.co/qLzIYOnzjJ pic.twitter.com/gwMiXLHxEC

— YouGov (@YouGov) November 16, 2018

I'm not surprised that 2nd ref is the least popular of these largely terrible options

Obviously it's all very well 19% of the country saying that in theory, doesn't mean they're going to like what follows.

if they don't like it they can easily blame it on weak government / eu tyranny / brown people, nbd

they're already doing that, no?

that's the great thing, it applies to literally every situation

Yeah one thing that seems likely is not many people will learn anything from whatever happens over the next 12 months

Maybe eventually but recognising political fuck-ups seems to take a generation almost

or a generation is just long enough to start rehabilitating political fuckups and start making the same mistakes all over again

Also possible

"brexit to appease my disgust at this place" is a dark fuckin reason lads kudos

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/20/clement-attlee-child-refugee-paul-willer-fled-nazis-1939

cool story about Attlee + the kindertransport boy he helped, his generation were generally speaking just totally fucking awful and beyond redemption, but he was a class act in this case.

I have to say, I do find the absolutely held assumption that you can't just make people do the referendum again to get a different result a bit odd. We did it in Ireland. Seems really weird that the political class is so afraid of this considering it treats the population like a colony already.

Well wasn't the gap between the Eight Amendment and its overturning about 30 years?

---

Taking a look at the numbers Matt posted and...

There isn’t a Leave voter out there who would recognise either crash-out or the current deal as “what they voted for”.

Some kind of Brexit happening:

No deal Brexit - 19%
Accept the deal - 16%
Seek new deal - 11%

Some kind of roll-back:

Ref on terms of deal - 8%
Remain in EU - 28%

The conclusion is as the referendum, at the least - and it doesn't matter the ppl voting for the apocalypse might not like what they get - from these numbers there is not enough remorse in what they voted.

But you know - just let me go to #peoplesvote and pull out that vid of grandpa calling in LBC and crying about his leave vote back on that fateful day.

I look forward to reading both your posts when the referendum happens. Ideally pictures of your faces would be great too.

― glumdalclitch, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Permanent scowls and smelling a fart

― glumdalclitch, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Can I have an essay from you on what we do about this or are you going to bark?