Also, slightly off topic, I've always wondered whether the show MI-5/Spooks was paying homage to this when they introduced the character of Connie, who initially seemed modeled on Connie from TTSS
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 18:24 (five years ago) link
My favorite thing about Le Carre is that most of his books are told in flashback/retrospect, so there's this overwhelming fatalistic "nothing to be done about it now, just clean up the mess" vibe which is very appealing to me as a middle-aged man.
― grawlix (unperson), Monday, 5 November 2018 18:37 (five years ago) link
One aspect of TTSS I really enjoy is the distance between Ricki Tarrβs self-image as a master spy and the reality of him as a fuckup.
― omar little, Monday, 5 November 2018 18:41 (five years ago) link
i feel like in the Le Carre world, many characters have that aspect
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 18:45 (five years ago) link
the miniseries is atmospheric but it does suffer in a non-charming way from bbc ca.1980 production values.
i think in some ways i prefer the movie. but although oldman is not ... miscast ... he's totally forgettable (i guess that's deliberate via acting)
― π ππ’π¨ (caek), Monday, 5 November 2018 18:48 (five years ago) link
https://electricliterature.com/ranking-every-john-le-carr%C3%A9-adaptation-82b1532d001f
― π ππ’π¨ (caek), Monday, 5 November 2018 18:50 (five years ago) link
ok but he gets the One Massive Big Thing he needs to get right (and that's what smiley spots and it's why he knows the things he knows that deems couldn't work out why he knows them)
(not least: if tarr had in fact been the tar-baby that karla sent to smoke out merlin, they'd have picked someone who was less of a fuckup)
it does suffer in a non-charming way from bbc ca.1980 production values
sir our friendship ends here
― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2018 18:51 (five years ago) link
i kinda feel like the forgettable quality gets at the essence of Smiley and that type of figure in Le Carre's work. I mean, in terms of espionage, you want to be forgettable, you don't want the enemy to be able to read you, think you are significant, or remember much about you, in order to avoid capture.
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 18:51 (five years ago) link
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*luLXOCVtodcB3MvHRl359A.png
me and my pals goofin off
― π ππ’π¨ (caek), Monday, 5 November 2018 18:52 (five years ago) link
I was just thinking, WTF happened to Tomas Alfredson anyway? Then I remembered lol The Snowman
― wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Monday, 5 November 2018 18:54 (five years ago) link
oof yeah that was a rough landing :(
― i want donald duck to scream into my dick (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 5 November 2018 18:57 (five years ago) link
I agree w/you on Tarr getting the info and heβs not a completely unresourceful amateur, but he winds up in way over his head and thoroughly unprepared for the enemy coming at him, which is at odds with the suavity and confidence he exhibits in the early going. All he can do at a certain point is escape and sneak back into England.
― omar little, Monday, 5 November 2018 18:58 (five years ago) link
I think sarahell gets at that point a bit too, Ricki is a bit flashy and reckless when he should be a bit more low key.
― omar little, Monday, 5 November 2018 18:59 (five years ago) link
bold who does it best:
PRIDEAUX: Ian Bannen vs Mark Strong (tie)CONTROL: Alexander Knox vs John HurtSMILEY: Alec Guiness vs Gary OldmanALLELINE: Michael Aldridge vs Toby JonesESTERHASE: Bernad Hepton vs David DencikBLAND: Terrance Rigby vs Ciaran HindsHAYDON: Ian Richardson vs Colin Firth (tie)CONNIE SACHS: Beryl Reid vs Kathy BurkeGUILLAM: Michael Jayston vs Benedict CumberbatchWESTERBY: Joss Ackland vs Stephen GrahamLACON: Anthony Bate vs Simon McBurneyTARR: Hywell Bennett vs Tom Hardy (tie)IRINA: Susan Kodicek vs Katrina VasilievaMENDEL: George Sewell vs Roger Lloyd Pack
― π ππ’π¨ (caek), Monday, 5 November 2018 19:07 (five years ago) link
in the movie some of these roles had very little to do
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:10 (five years ago) link
I mean, it's up there with ranking best portrayals of "Henchman #3" in Die Hard movies
if there were a die hard tv series in which they were permitted to spread their wings yes
― π ππ’π¨ (caek), Monday, 5 November 2018 19:12 (five years ago) link
hepton is the main flaw in the TV SP i think
i don't really agree re hinds vs rigby but the character is such an unsketched nullity even in the book that it's mainly bcz i think i took against some character hinds played in something
― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:12 (five years ago) link
sure! but like Bland's part in the movie was the equivalent of Henchman #3 in a Die Hard movie
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:13 (five years ago) link
lol i think it's the villain in lara croft: tomb raider β the cradle of life
xp
― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:14 (five years ago) link
fuck that guy
― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:15 (five years ago) link
GUILLAM: Michael Jayston vs Benedict Cumberbatch
but this, yes, yes, yes
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:15 (five years ago) link
As in Jayston was way better
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:16 (five years ago) link
word. that comparison really brings home how uncharismatic cumberbatch is (in everything).
― π ππ’π¨ (caek), Monday, 5 November 2018 19:16 (five years ago) link
I think when I initially saw the casting, I had hoped Cumberbatch would play Ricky Tarr or Percy -- like, he's fine being a smug prat that gets his comeuppance
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:18 (five years ago) link
joss ackland is so perfectly cast, and i'd watch him read the phonebook. not sure he'd have been able to sustain it for a miniseries of the honorable schoolboy though.
― π ππ’π¨ (caek), Monday, 5 November 2018 19:20 (five years ago) link
it's year since i read honourable schoolboy -- bcz it's not very good -- but iirc westerby comes across quite a lot younger than someone ackland could reasonably play
(i think the character is written somewhat ambiguously agewise and lecarre felt he could spin him out into something where he definitively was younger)
― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:24 (five years ago) link
Jayston's performance has a great balance of competence and casual blending in with hidden wariness vs Cumberbatch's performance, which skews a little too far towards obvious fear and unpreparedness.
― omar little, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:27 (five years ago) link
Cumberbatch has a certain theatricality that he can't hide, he's too showy for the role of someone who is supposed to be trusted by everyone on every side at any given moment.
― omar little, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:29 (five years ago) link
xp - I enjoyed honourable schoolboy, but I remember next to nothing about it, so in retrospect it was probably not that great
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:30 (five years ago) link
Actually, I vaguely recall reading it and thinking it was something Len Deighton would have written better, but I could be confusing it with another forgettable le Carre
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:31 (five years ago) link
The Hon. Schoolboy is great!!
― mick signals, Monday, 5 November 2018 19:41 (five years ago) link
id declare firth over richardson i think
― lie back and think of englund (darraghmac), Monday, 5 November 2018 20:08 (five years ago) link
unfortunately firth is walking around with a huge giant pointy arrow sellotaped to his head say "obviously the mole is me"
― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2018 20:15 (five years ago) link
aye the fact that he's the best known actor of any of the suspects and is the only one that has much screen time surely signals that a bit too much (id seen the bbc miniseries before i saw the film so it's hard to tell).
― ( Ν‘β ΝΚ Ν‘β) (jim in vancouver), Monday, 5 November 2018 20:19 (five years ago) link
aye the fact that he's the best known actor of any of the suspects and is the only one that has much screen time surely signals that a bit too much
yeah, that was one of the disappointing things about the movie
― sarahell, Monday, 5 November 2018 20:25 (five years ago) link
I wasn't familiar with the story before watching the film and I didn't twig that Firth was the mole, although to be fair the main flaw with the film is that it spectacularly bad at making you care who the mole is.
― Matt DC, Monday, 5 November 2018 20:25 (five years ago) link
ah its only the point in a very vague way
also toby tchoocallim has lots of screen time and has much more of a sign pointed at him
esterhazy is a dick on a few occasions and bland uh looks sinister in a few slo-mos so tbh it keeps it clean enough that way
― lie back and think of englund (darraghmac), Monday, 5 November 2018 20:34 (five years ago) link
films i had recently seen toby jones in (reverse order):captain america: the first avenger (arnim zola) st trinian's 2: the legend of fritton's gold (bursar) frost/nixon (swifty lazar) w. (karl rove) (!)
so i knew it couldn't be him
― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2018 20:48 (five years ago) link
(also i'd read the book abt 349852309457 times)
― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2018 20:51 (five years ago) link
My god Firth and Richardson tied? I adore Ian Richardson as Haydon. Also I do really like Hepton as Esterhase. Actually one of the performances that brings the most joy when watching! I love how he adopts an English accent in TTSS but loses it for something vaguely foreign in SP.
― chinavision!, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 16:14 (five years ago) link
And his insane shirts
― chinavision!, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 16:17 (five years ago) link
Esterhase also really shines in the Bern scenes in SP. We see how good he is at what he does.
― chinavision!, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 16:18 (five years ago) link
yeah hes a much better performance and role in sp
― lie back and think of englund (darraghmac), Tuesday, 6 November 2018 16:20 (five years ago) link
firth dies better than richardson
― π ππ’π¨ (caek), Tuesday, 6 November 2018 16:52 (five years ago) link
i like richardson's weird broke-neck wriggle, even though it's totally unconvincing -- it sort of suits the stupid squalor of the situation (including the fact that the air and the charm go out of the character like a leaky balloon when he stops being an actor on a stage)
― mark s, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 16:56 (five years ago) link
Ok I really donβt really remember the broke neck wriggle. Have to rewatch.
― chinavision!, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 17:37 (five years ago) link
binged little drummer girl over three nights and thought it was good
the absence of actual british government agents until the last act made the one representative character take on an air of imperial cynicism that you miss out in some of the other le carre adaptations because everything's coated in that cynicism from the get-go
― mh, Thursday, 29 November 2018 19:14 (five years ago) link
Ricki Tarr, one of fictionβs great dirtbags
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Friday, 18 January 2019 04:09 (five years ago) link
Why did Alfredson's The Snowman get such terrible reviews? I thought it was okay--standard serial-killer stuff that at least looked good and maintained a kind of desolate mood.
― clemenza, Monday, 4 March 2019 12:50 (five years ago) link