Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

I've had zero second thoughts about hiding friends or family members who post obnoxious political stuff. I don't need to take up any extra space in my head contemplating their awful POVs.

fb grand except for ppl who think its for learning/instruction which is a terrible terrible terrible concept to have about fb or anything else rly

Dmac TT is mostly OTM, aside than the fact that ultimately this was what finally forced Jol out

Refuting anything said just reinforces the point. What greater seal of approval can there be than have one of the enemy turn up and refute it for you? Any kind of learning/instruction has to have their guard down and wanting to listen (and yours too). This does happen! it can even (possibly) happen on fb.

With my hardcore RW cousin, I never refute anything, I may ask questions but I never offer my own opinion unless asked. If asked a leading question I say "no idea, never heard of it". If asked an open honest question I give an open honest answer. This very rarely happens

One thing that has happened with my cousin is, deep levels of misreading - the sense that there is another conversation underneath the actual conversation that is taking place. I don't even think its wilful, and I aim for clarity in saying anything - but even in the simplest of exchanges something is misunderstood somewhere. And this extends well outside of anything political. e.g something as simple as "Will you get the train when you go?", leads to something like "what makes you think I'm going tomorrow?". And i'm flummoxed, how did "tomorrow" get in there? It feels like there are lots of unsaid levels to a conversation, its just more obvious in political stuff but happens outside of it too

all agreed, anvil in on a four year contract pls

I think whats happening is there is this "idea", but then only a part of it is communicated, and thats what I then respond to, but there's more to it than what I'm responding to so miscommunication is there right at the very beginning.

I also notice a deep reluctance to writing anything down, like in making a decision about something I suggest well ok write down the pros and cons and lets see what we've got. He is very reluctant to do anything like this, and the decision ends up being made more on a kind of instinct, and only at that point will the reasons come out - like after the fact. The answer must come first, and only then do the questions get a look in. Which leads to a strange sense of outcome being pre-ordained, almost as though questioning or analyzing the options is somehow upsetting the natural order. Thats why i think 'refuting with facts' is kind of a mugs game - at least with my cousin. actual 'politics' is tangential, its much deeper than that

The only time I stage an intervention on a right-wing post is when it’s made by my sister, where I respond in a way that’s guaranteed to have her remove said post.

I am a little surprised at the idea that Facebook is a terrible platform for politics - I've seen people have good nuanced conversations on it, usually in the context that they are both on a mutual friend's post. I literally can't imagine that happening on Twitter or - or on Instagram? on Bebo? on Ello? on Youtube comments?

haha dmac trenchant posts turning fatalistic in the last four words vmic

Yeah, I don't think Facebook is bad for political discussions except for the factors that make political discussions online bad in general.

it's not innately bad for political discussions, it's just way too easy to make terrible lies and malice proliferate. takes no thought or time to see something offensive and immediately, blindly forward it and connect it to dozens of more people. With no real repercussions. and Facebook in particular, it is not in the company's financial interests to limit this activity. though maybe things will change. Maybe Facebook tightening and better enforcing restrictions will be the equivalent of Amazon raising the minimum wage to $15.

But again what are you comparing it to? It’s 10 times better than Twitter on all those counts, and everything else is only better because it’s smaller.

I don't know, compared to actually having a conversation with someone? Because yeah, it's an innate problem with social media of all sorts.

It's just all so passive and mindless. Just wait till every American with a phone gets the not optional stupid ass emergency notice from the White House today. That's going to be the way of the future.

https://longreads.com/2018/09/18/no-i-will-not-debate-you/

i don't think that facebook is uniquely bad as an internet discussion platform, and indeed it has some advantages other platforms don't, but its size, and the fact that consequently all the worst people use it, works to its disadvantage. i find there's a sort of gresham's law of internet discourse - bad speech drives out good.

the other problem with internet discourse, and it's been this way since the days of usenet at least, is that it discourages listening and encourages soapboxing. why have a back-and-forth with another person when you can instead play to the gallery? in this way the internet is frequently an asymmetrical form of communciation masquerading as a symmetrical form.

I still think the observation Louis CK (sorry) made is pretty apt. It's just so easy to say something mean and hurtful online, and not only will you not see the reaction of the person you're hurting, what you posted will just stay up there forever, for them and others to see and think about. So what took me a split second to do has a much bigger and longer impact.

There was someone else recently who made the prediction re: social media and cell phones that in the not too distant future we will look back on this era like we look back on everyone smoking or kids eating nothing but processed junk food. Like, "what were we thinking?!"

I still think the observation Louis CK (sorry) made is pretty apt. It's just so easy to say something mean and hurtful online, and not only will you not see the reaction of the person you're hurting, what you posted will just stay up there forever, for them and others to see and think about. So what took me a split second to do has a much bigger and longer impact.

― Josh in Chicago

that may be theoretically true, but in practice we're very good at forgetting the past. yeah i said some fucking awful stuff on usenet 25 years ago, but unless i run for public office, who gives a shit?

for me the problem is that negative feedback registers more powerfully than positive feedback, combined with the natural tendency on the internet to exaggerate for effect. if someone tells me i am the greatest person of all time, i shrug, say "thanks", feel good for a second, and move on with my life. on the other hand if someone talks shit about me, it stays with me for a while longer. maybe other people have different experiences, i certainly wouldn't want generalize that experience, but at the same time i don't feel like i'm wholly alone in reacting in such a fashion.

That is absolutely true. The internet magnifies everything negative and minimizes everything positive. I am no scientist, but that must have something to do with how our brains work. Reading something complimentary online, we just assume no thought was put into it, because no thought is needed. The same is true for something negative, but we dwell on it much more. Or at least some of us do.

fb grand except for ppl who think its for learning/instruction which is a terrible terrible terrible concept to have about fb or anything else rly actively undermining the functioning of global democracy and selling all of your personal info to deodorant companies and Steve Bannon

fb is a piece of crap for baby boomers and lames

(i deactivate it but keep fb messenger in case any person on there that i don't see much needs to get a hold of me)

Most of my family has had right-wing brain worms since forever, but, I mean, how do you even conceive of dealing with this level of crazy? (This is my mother-in-law.)

That's it, I'm done.. I know what I believe about Kavanaugh and I know I will never be able to convince any Democrat anything different than what they believe, because they will never change my mind... It's just a shame that the Democrats have been acting so mean and nasty about all of this and the way they have been treating us Republicans is a SHAME... I never thought they would ever be this mean to us... We are suppose to be a United country, I guess the Democrats don't believe that... The Democrats have become the party of Bullies. so sad.... and by the way, our country is a Republic, not a democracy... I cringe every time any person in our government calls us a democracy.... The end...

the whole "republic, not a democracy" thing is the dumbest shit ever

Yeah, well North Korea's full name is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea whereas South Korea is just the Republic of Korea. Checkmate, libtards.

have her explain the differences between a republic vs democracy. be prepared to cringe.

Well, a republic is ruled by Republicans, see . . .

Rush and josh speak wisely. There is a whole thing (some) people do where it's tough for us to accept that there is a negative view of ourselves out there anywhere. And if anyone anywhere thinks ill of us, we need to confront and combat that perception. Even if (perhaps especially if) it's futile and the healthier thing would be to make like Elsa and let it go.

It happens here on ilx. It happens in my work life. It happens in my personal relationships, including my marriage.

ow do you even conceive of dealing with this level of crazy? (This is my mother-in-law.)

When she said this, who is she saying it to? if thats a fb post or something then its just an expression, there's nothing to respond to. Its a closer not an opener. Responding to closers is never a good idea. IF I were ever to respond, which I wouldn't, I'd try move away from the conceptual to the tangible, pick one small bit and respond to that, eg "I'd be ok with Kavanaugh, its just the perjury thing, I'm still having some trouble with it, perjury is a bit of an issue for me". In the unlikely event that I'd engage with this, that is as far as I could ever imagine going

have her explain the differences between a republic vs democracy. be prepared to cringe.

I really try and steer clear of ANY talk on a conceptual level, particularly with my cousin - almost certainly not talking about the same things even if using the same word.

And if anyone anywhere thinks ill of us, we need to confront and combat that perception.

Letting go of this is key. The first thing I think is, well, does this particular persons perception matter? Most likely its a no (it might even be that the person matters but their perception doesn't). If the answer is yes it does matter, confront and combat are still the wrong tools. If their perception matters, it might well be that they have a point, and I need to find out what that is

I liked the girl in the Sailor Moon outfit when she got ambushed by Infowars (at a Bernie event possibly?), and the interviewer bombarded her with "Socialism! Venezuela! eating Rats! Socialism!" in that really weird way of talking very fast at someone. And she replied "I just want free healthcare, honey"

"But I just told you they'r eating rats!"

Letting go of this is key. The first thing I think is, well, does this particular persons perception matter? Most likely its a no (it might even be that the person matters but their perception doesn't). If the answer is yes it does matter, confront and combat are still the wrong tools. If their perception matters, it might well be that they have a point, and I need to find out what that is

― anvil

This is the really tricky bit. If someone's perception matters to me, it's either because I love them, or because they have power over me (or both). Trump supporters are so extreme that the number of possible responses to them are limited. There's confrontation, capitulation, and avoidance.

I've chosen avoidance, and avoidance in a fairly extreme form. In the case of people I loved, I've concluded that someone's support of Trump necessarily changes them to the point where it is impossible for them to truly recognize and respect me as a human being, and that therefore the preconditions for a loving relationship are impossible, and so I've withdrawn strongly from them.

In the second case, I've taken active steps to remove myself from situations where Trump supporters have power over me. This is the difficult part because these steps aren't available to all people. It's extremely challenging when people who have power over you either implicitly or explicitly hate you and want to hurt you. If flight isn't an option, I guess that just leaves fight.

Trying to understand here (good luck, I know): for GOPers, does 'mean bullying' basically = 'why are you so vehemently opposed to us making unpopular decisions on your behalf'? 'Why do you have to make such a fuss about us dismantling civil society?' 'Why do you have to so forcefully point out that I've aligned myself with increasingly-unalloyed evil?' What? I can't square it.

In the case of people I loved, I've concluded that someone's support of Trump necessarily changes them to the point where it is impossible for them to truly recognize and respect me as a human being

How does this manifest? With my cousin it can be quite odd, its not even particularly clear if I am even considered one of the 'they' or not. sometimes yes but often no. Can it be that your loved ones are holding something similar, in some ways doing a form of mental gymnastics where you aren't part of the target group?

Also, your avoidance - Ive read plenty of people going down this route and its definitely understandable, but Ive found 'conversation avoidance' a better tactic than 'actual avoidance'. Granted I only really have the one person that is like this, but I've viewed this like, well, I do have a choice about the topic of conversation, I don't have to if I don't want to.

As for people in a position of power over you, that is much worse, your options are so limited, thankfully I don't (currently) have to face that. I'm not sure I'd be able to cope well with that at all

Few Republicans are actually card-carrying racists and torch waivers, in my opinion. They just have no consideration or awareness of anyone outside of their immediate circle. They can have gay family or black friends and be totally cool with both even while voting against their interests, because they are "the good ones." But they never seem to take into account that everybody has friends who are the "good ones," and there's millions and millions and millions of "good ones" out there, all of them have friends and loved ones, and just because your friends and family aren't being hurt, to the best of your limited knowledge, that does not mean there are not millions and millions of people out there who are suffering or at risk thanks to the GOP.

Or maybe they're all racists, etc.

The only success I’ve found arguing with right wing friends is Socratic inquiry. Just ask questions to try and understand what they believe and sometimes the questions force them to rethink their beliefs. “What’s the difference between a democracy and a republic and why is a republic preferable to a democracy” could be a good question. “Should we aim for representation as close to 1 person 1 vote as possible or should minority groups and elites be making the decisions for the rest of the country?” If nothing else it’ll illuminate their values. I’ve mostly had ppl walk back their craziness when we get into these kinds of questions but I’ve also had people admit that they’d prefer an authoritarian gov and no democracy at all which is a good thing to know. “I disagree that authoritarianism would be better than a democracy but I can certainly see the appeal.”

I'm watching Mindhunter rn and I have to say that this detailed exploration of the psychology of (almost entirely white male) serial killers, while nothing new, has been kinda revelatory at this particular political moment. Like they're really only distinguished from, say, bog standard MRA turds and conservatives in the violent manifestation of their worldview.

(Like the one killer who let a victim go because she said her dad had cancer, which reminded him of his brother's cancer. Empathy only exists when the direct mapping of someone else's lived experience onto their own allows them to briefly consider that other people might also have an interior life, hopes, dreams, fears, etc.)

if you don't interact with ppl with right-wing beliefs i can see how you might think that they are psychologically indistinguishable from serial killers but i think you might find that many of them share values with you and mostly disagree about what facts are germane / what systems can best accomplish those values / etc. that has been my experience. i don't get the impression that republican voters are sociopathic.

true. from personal experience, they're both hateful and fearful

There’s a stunning disconnect that I see irl bc the several people I know who are apparently mildly-to-deeply right wing have always been perfectly respectful and decent in person. Online it’s an entirely different story — to see one of the nicest dads I know going off on NextDoor about a fifth column and shooting people who trespass, or seeing the mild-mannered dude I knew turn into an alt-right cartoonist bullying anti-women conspiracy theorist, or my quiet cousin who came out of the closet and married his bf and goes off on thinly veiled racist meme rants (his husband is from Central America!)...I think it shows how the internet can turn people who may otherwise debate in better faith into seeming monsters.

I guess the question is, has the internet actually changed them, have they always been this way, has the black and white debate style of internet discourse irreparably destroyed them (and almost everyone else?)

I only have deeply negative feelings about one of those people now tbh, due to what does seem like a deep targeted cruelty that is different from a rant or two and dumb meme sharing.

i agree with you in that someone being polite and nice in their everyday life has nothing to do with the vile feelings and attitudes they carry inside. at least most of these right wingers i know have the sense to keep these views inside before letting it slip "accidentally" about how annoyed they are about black people are actually awful, but i also live in a fairly liberal area

I'm kinda at the point where I don't give a fuck how kindly and polite and gracious a conservative is with me personally. A tip of the cap and a 'howdoyoudo!' doesn't offset the measurable damage their ideology does to the wider world.

Some of you guys seem to have neverending tolerance for absolute bullshit people in your lives. Congrats? I am still completely in the shame and shun operating procedure. So far, no regrets and awesome perk that I no longer have to travel home for the holidays (or funerals).

believe me, if i was anywhere close to affording it i'd get away from my family. but escape is not an option, so tolerance is required

I think Mordy's generally otm here, the biggest hurdle (in my experience) is getting them to engage in that kind of Socratic dialogue in the first place. Like that "democracy vs. republic" line gives you an avenue to pursue, but sometimes it's hard to dig past a bunch of bs rhetoric to get at larger, underlying issues.

mind you i don't actually really think my cousin is a fully decent human being, but i also empathize w/his genuine pain when he came out (at age 35) to his right wing folks and his very anti-gay mom (who is now very pro-gay, what a country), and his husband is afaict pretty damned left wing, which makes it all pretty strange as a situation, him being such a pro-Trump guy in very selective ways. we spent time with my aunt and uncle and other cousin (not him) and i think he was on duty and couldn't make it. we see them all once every several years. it's family, i don't really feel like shunning them. my son likes them all, idk.

this dad i know, his daughter is friends with my son. never even knew he leaned hard right til he discovered social media and one night my w1fe asked, "have you seen....anyone we know posting...."interesting" things on NextDoor?" And here I only thought the guy got worked up over WW2 books and grilling burgers. eh I don't know if he even likes Trump. Probably. I know he's also friends with a vv liberal lesbian couple, not to mention all their other liberal friends. People are complicated, maybe they can also change?

mostly i feel like leading by ingratiating, tolerant example sometimes does work maybe very incrementally and even if it doesn't work, i don't think it turns someone *more* right wing.

I've happily cut off all my family who espouse this shit (while keeping around one aunt who believes it but keeps her mouth shut; and TBH i don't know what my mother thinks, she used to be super liberal, became an alcoholic and then kind of conservative as she got closer to catholic church again, then I sensed a drift and now I think she doesn't know what to believe); I just can't get over the urge to recontact some of them and argue. that's my problem

I don't think my life or the world will be enriched in any way by my cutting out people who disagree w/ my politics. As long as they aren't explicitly advocating for genocide I can deal with most abhorrent political beliefs and they certainly won't evolve / change their minds if I ignore them. There are Republicans in my life who I've been interacting with for years who I can see in demonstrable ways that they've modulated and changed their opinions on things because they've interacted with me in cool, rational exchanges over and over again.

I admire your patience, Mordy.

I haven't got the energy tbh.

Well they aren't "politics" friends. They're people who I socialize with in my community - I eat meals with them, I pray with them, I play board games with them, our kids play together, sometimes we work together. And sometimes politics comes up as it does. It doesn't define our relationship. If it did I'd probably be less interested in socializing with them. And I prefer socializing with people who share my politics bc it's just easier. But I gain enough from these relationships that have nothing obvious/explicit to do with politics.

The vicissitudes of federal service require that I regularly interact with both small-c conservatives and big-R Republicans in a professional context and I’m thankful that they leave their brain worms at home, although sometimes the water cooler chumminess with ideological foes who apparently hate everything I believe in can create a stressful dissonance when I’m away from work and have time to reflect.

Right now I’m in school with a bunch of career military folks who seem like they could definitely be insufferable right wing assholes if the uniform didn’t demand that they not identify with any party.

I respect their dedication to being unaffiliated but sometimes their bothsidesism and barely-concealed libertarian tendencies make me sad.

Separately - I estranged myself from my family for totally not political reasons. I have a hard time imagining putting myself through the emotional wringer of being, like, famous ILX poster and Twitch streamer Karl Malone, basically.