Louie (Louis C.K.'s show on FX)

#2 through #5 are specifically what I had in mind, and an addendum to #2 would be "get in touch with everyone you told or implied that your victims were 'difficult to work with' or whatever" (see: the chr*s hardw*ck thing) and tell them that you lied about that"

also a handy refutation to Michael Ian Black's assertion that there's "no path to redemption" for men who've behaved badly.

(there've been a couple tweets going around to the effect of '[comparatively minor thing] happened to [female actor/artist] and it killed her career' but those tweets sort of miss the real issue -- whenever a woman's career is killed or harmed over something comparatively minor, there's a decent chance there's a story behind that. not always, but a good chance. good example of that from the past decade would be megan fox)

If his art actually meant something his fans would be more invested in him having a comeback. As it is they seem fine with him fading away, which is fine by me. But—to take another example—literally no one who loved the smiths refuses to listen to “there is a light that never goes out” anymore. They might not want to support morrisey financially or whatever but the songs are still obviously good no matter what he does.

― 🦅 (Trϵϵship), Wednesday, August 29, 2018 8:33 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I guess feel like music and comedy is so different. Even if I really liked a comedy standup special I don't really go back and watch it over and over. I might watch something twice, or years later want to be like hmmm I wonder if this old Chris Rock special still seems good but it's not like music where I walk around listening to my favorite comedy on headphones...

xp -- the music/comedy thing is subtly different, I think.

when a musician turns out to be an asshole/harasser/abuser/whatever, the backlash is generally along the lines of "but their work was important to me, and it won't stop being important to me." with comedians, it's generally more "this is my fun, how can you ruin my fun?" and the latter, I think, is more insidious and harder to dislodge, because of the immense stigma against "taking things seriously"

(whereas with "how do you separate the art from the artist?" there is at least some implied baseline level of taking it seriously)

I don't think anyone plays 'Panic' out much - or if they do, then it's with an edge.

Also wtf Morrissey being Morrissey is pretty essential to the Smiths?

Oh never mind I just saw R Kelly as someone where you can separate the art from the artist, fuck this thread.

I can see what katherine means. there's a level of theoretical separability to hearing "ignition" at a party vs. watching a standup set or an eponymous TV show writen/directed by/centered around a specific persona

R. Kelly has elements of both, I think -- you have R&B fans, and then you have people who are so pissed that these humorless feminists are taking away their right to lolplay "Ignition (Remix)" at parties

you can't dance to comedy

https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=vgUbRBC2ZE4

the prosecution rests, your honor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_-8SS1LS_c

(he's actually dancing in this one)

my gut here is that a lot of people who enjoy standup specifically want inoffensive comedy. they're looking for something that will entertain them and make them laugh, and are more interested in something that will validate their pre-existing beliefs, whatever those may be, than they are in having those beliefs challenged. weirdly, many people are perfectly happy to accept inoffensive comedy from offensive people. i don't know why that is. compartmentalization or whatever. regardless of how deep people's personal loyalty to louis ck is, his comedy definitely meets a demand and therefore i think it will be a challenge to persuade people to stay away from him.

def can't go to a club these days without the DJ dropping a youtube clip of limmey's show

don't know that I'd classify louis ck's thing as "inoffensive comedy" even if all of this never existed -- it definitely trades on a certain, as much as I hate the word, edginess

in his case it's more self-deprecating bros wanting self-deprecating bro comedy. and for a lot of the people still on board with him, the allegations probably don't create an issue at all because they're just more self-deprecating bro behavior

honestly yeah i wouldn't call CK inoffensive like he's i dunno, carlos mencia or something

the hard part for me in terms of ever listening to him is that too much of the weird sex hangups and dysfunction was a part of his comedy, like it feels really tied to what happened, and i guess sort of manipulative in retrospect...i can't really see just laughing at him like a regular comedian again

not to mention a decent chunk of his comedy dealt with the awfulness of men and all the shitty things women have to put up with from them.

CK Against Humanity

did ums just namecheck carlos mencia's garbage-filled stereotype schtick as "inoffensive"

I mean you could've just swapped in Gaffigan there (and he's actually funny!)

the hard part for me in terms of ever listening to him is that too much of the weird sex hangups and dysfunction was a part of his comedy, like it feels really tied to what happened, and i guess sort of manipulative in retrospect...i can't really see just laughing at him like a regular comedian again

this is v otm tho and exactly how I feel. I can't separate the person from the work in this case, they're too intimately knotted together (same goes for R. Kelly)

in his case it's more self-deprecating bros wanting self-deprecating bro comedy. and for a lot of the people still on board with him, the allegations probably don't create an issue at all because they're just more self-deprecating bro behavior

OTM

His later standup sets and TV shows (especially the middle seasons of Louie) were full of gross, humblebraggy "I'm a regular fucked-up guy but I can be a hero when I need to be" routines which now seem unforgivably dishonest. I couldn't watch new stuff without thinking "what's he hiding now?" or "why isn't he talking about the wanking thing" or "is he still making reparations?"

btw, hang the DJ hang the DJ

Louie the series had some good stuff in it (Lynch/tv show arc probably the best) but it got really tiresome with the "Louie has awkward sex" plots - I mean, he got laid a *lot* in that show, it was ridiculous.

> "why isn't he talking about the wanking thing"

This was about 30% of his routines, and maybe 15% of the FX series.

Do you know anyone that was surprised that Louis C.K. asked colleagues to observe him actually wanking?

not to mention a decent chunk of his comedy dealt with the awfulness of men and all the shitty things women have to put up with from them.

― evol j, Wednesday, August 29, 2018 3:30 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This bothered me a lot about his comedy. It was never just self deprecating, it traded on gender stereotyping that seemed progressive (“grrr those disusting men!”) but really were in the end just exculpatory for disgusting people. When I learned he liked to harass women I wasn’t surprised because I never felt his self loathing and masochistic comedy made him look like “one of the good ones” and was honestly disturbed others felt otherwise

To be frank, he is a guy whose work suggests that he thinks his own sexuality is inherently grotesque. That’s not a good starting point if we want to work to build a better masculinity (cue the original intention of the LJ thread that is now mostly used as an MRA atrocity exhibition hall)

he is a guy whose work suggests that he thinks his own sexuality is inherently grotesque.

it goes beyond suggestion, it's quite overt, and it's clear he thinks it's ingrained/inherent (ergo he can't control it or ultimately be responsible for it cuz hey "that's just how men are amirite")

like what's that line he has about men seeing a beautiful thing and always wanting to destroy it/make it ugly (the example being something about cumming on a librarian's hair iirc?)

I mean ugh

Exactly. It’s the kind of thing to work through in therapy not an FX series.

I’ve been in therapy often—that wasn’t a quip. I think it’s a really destructive way to view sexuality and he should want to overcome it

but clearly one that resonates with a lot of people and particularly a lot of men

unforgivably dishonest
this sums up how i feel about his comedy in general --i didn't relate to him at all, nor did i like his persona. i watched the show but got super turned off when he started projecting romance on the woman who didn't speak english. i think the most off-putting thing about him was how he used his perception of his own grotesqueness as a way to identify with his audience and...to put it mildly, i didn't feel it. also, i am not a parent but the people i know who liked him liked what he had to say about parenting. which also makes the whole thing a little worse? can you imagine how his kids feel? yikes.

Do you know anyone that was surprised that Louis C.K. asked colleagues to observe him actually wanking?
yes i did know some people who were surprised about the forced wank viewing. i was not one of them but a couple of friends texted me to say "idgi" and i had to explain :(

xp you’re def right katherine, but i think that’s symptomatic of some deep rot in our society not just inevitable as seems to be implied in louis ck’s show

also otm exculpatory for disgusting people

Louie the series had some good stuff in it (Lynch/tv show arc probably the best) but it got really tiresome with the "Louie has awkward sex" plots - I mean, he got laid a *lot* in that show, it was ridiculous.

yea this bothered me too, can't really buy the whole lovesick puppy thing when he gets laid every time he steps foot outside. worst is probably the one where he follows the cashier home and berates her the whole way and then picks up a lady outside her apartment, or something like that. it was gross.

the getting laid a lot thing doesn't but me that much (stuff like the Yvonne Strahovski episode and most of the stuff with Parker Posey was clearly meant to be surreal / not really representative of reality) but that particular segment with the cashier was maybe the worst thing in the whole show

the scene with Adlon in the last season where he basically (iirc) re-enacts what was later confirmed as his real-life M.O. was super unsettling but at least was not treated like a wacky punchline

who would y'all guess would be the next comic to be revealed as a bigger creep based on them already revealing themselves as a creep on TV? marc maron seems like he would be if it didn't seem like his entire podcast was devoted to preemptively and exhaustively showcasing his faults.

Yeah, we'd have heard about Maron by now.

the only thing of CK's that i've ever seen was a kind of comedy round-table program with him, seinfeld, chris rock and ricky gervais; the presence of gervais made him look relatively good iirc. so i'm obviously not the target audience, but . . . when events happen, is *anyone* all like omg i can't wait to see what CK has to say about this!? he's unnecessary. nothing is being lost by his well-deserved absence; there are lots of funny people who aren't creeps

tbf he's probably infinitesimally more necessary than matt lauer -- no idea why that guy thinks he brings anything to the table

I'm not going to pretend I didn't think his stand-up and his show (at times) were genuinely brilliant, insightful, and better than anything produced by 99% of the comedians working today

but I have no desire to hear what he has to say on any subject or watch any project he's involved with ever again

He kept asking Dick Cheney if he was a lizard, which is something I do think more cultural figures should have done, but in retrospect I dunno if that lack of impulse control to do that was emblematic of anything more sinister.

I understand the impulse to be a bit delicate but like "being a creep" does not cover what Louis CK did; he did sex crimes, and used his influence in his professional community to keep people who knew about it quiet for years.

yes