Louie (Louis C.K.'s show on FX)

🦅

But yeah, it took a scandal to reveal the mediocrity of “Louie” imo. There isn’t life in it; enjoyment is dependent on whether you find louis himself sympathetic and affable.

In the case of aziz ansari people seem actually excited that they don’t need to pretend to like master of none anymore. Everyone seems to have forgotten that, at the time, his scandal was considered to have been more of a miscommunication than an isntance of harassment.

I feel comfortable saying that there were snatches of greatness in Louie (and Horace and Pete and I Love You Daddy) that don't require you to find him sympathetic. but I'm also not really interested in a comeback?

I think all those projects have more to offer than Master of None ever did.

If his art actually meant something his fans would be more invested in him having a comeback. As it is they seem fine with him fading away, which is fine by me.

Do they though? I'm not that optimistic, and like Katherine fear the bigger part of his audience will laugh just as hard at a new show, whether he addresses what happened in it or not.

It's hard to say, but for a few years he enjoyed almost unanimous critical praise and it seemed to feed him like oxygen - and that time is definitely over.

No doubt he'll have to 'get by' without critical praise, but tbf with the base of millions he's built up already? He could lose a million fans over this; there'll still be millions left.

he's always seemed pretty keen for the praise of the cognoscenti i.e. "i'm really a filmmaker" etc

Yes, exactly. I'm not sure he'll settle for touring/working with diminished status and wouldn't be surprised if he went away again for a while instead.

Probably wouldn't hurt if he wound up having to take a job somewhere with an HR department.

I liked the thread of "solutions" polyphonic linked earlier. CK has a lot of ways he could communicate that he's tried to atone, or learn, or at least *try* to make good, and so far there's been no evidence he's even tried to do that.

If his art actually meant something his fans would be more invested in him having a comeback. As it is they seem fine with him fading away, which is fine by me. But—to take another example—literally no one who loved the smiths refuses to listen to “there is a light that never goes out” anymore. They might not want to support morrisey financially or whatever but the songs are still obviously good no matter what he does.

― 🦅 (Trϵϵship), Wednesday, August 29, 2018 8:33 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think this analogy really holds up, partly because Morrissey didn't full-on reveal himself to be a garbage person until well after The Smiths' heyday whereas Louis' fall happened at more or less the peak of his acclaim. Mostly though I think there's a huge difference between stand-up and music, and Louis' art in particular has been basically inextricable from himself. there was no visible persona or facade there, it was always "the person you see on stage/screen is more or less exactly the person I am." speaking for myself, I'm partly less invested in his comeback than I would be if he was a different type of performer BECAUSE his art meant so much and therefore finding out about all of the awful shit he did felt like a real betrayal (not that I'm saying that's even a fraction as significant as the betrayal of his victims).

If his art actually meant something his fans would be more invested in him having a comeback.

If you're talking his movies and shows, sure, I don't think anyone gives a shit, and I'm not even sure they were made to be liked, anyway. They were self-consciously indulgent. But he is/was a brilliant/major stand-up act. I don't get any revisionism that claims he isn't/wasn't.

Yeah, I don't buy the Morrissey analogy either - of course people are gonna be less likely to discard songs that they've lived with for decades (and which aren't exclusively Morrissey's doing, anyway).

the thread of solutions linked upthread is exactly what I was talking about re: what would have to take place for me before I am OK with a comeback

yeah evol is otm, I don't think you can separate the art from the person in the way you sorta can with, I dunno, R. Kelly

obviously the Louie in the show is creepy and somewhat abusive but he's also obviously in the wrong in most episodes. it doesn't quite work when its revealed that the real Louie is basically the same.

#2 through #5 are specifically what I had in mind, and an addendum to #2 would be "get in touch with everyone you told or implied that your victims were 'difficult to work with' or whatever" (see: the chr*s hardw*ck thing) and tell them that you lied about that"

also a handy refutation to Michael Ian Black's assertion that there's "no path to redemption" for men who've behaved badly.

(there've been a couple tweets going around to the effect of '[comparatively minor thing] happened to [female actor/artist] and it killed her career' but those tweets sort of miss the real issue -- whenever a woman's career is killed or harmed over something comparatively minor, there's a decent chance there's a story behind that. not always, but a good chance. good example of that from the past decade would be megan fox)

If his art actually meant something his fans would be more invested in him having a comeback. As it is they seem fine with him fading away, which is fine by me. But—to take another example—literally no one who loved the smiths refuses to listen to “there is a light that never goes out” anymore. They might not want to support morrisey financially or whatever but the songs are still obviously good no matter what he does.

― 🦅 (Trϵϵship), Wednesday, August 29, 2018 8:33 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I guess feel like music and comedy is so different. Even if I really liked a comedy standup special I don't really go back and watch it over and over. I might watch something twice, or years later want to be like hmmm I wonder if this old Chris Rock special still seems good but it's not like music where I walk around listening to my favorite comedy on headphones...

xp -- the music/comedy thing is subtly different, I think.

when a musician turns out to be an asshole/harasser/abuser/whatever, the backlash is generally along the lines of "but their work was important to me, and it won't stop being important to me." with comedians, it's generally more "this is my fun, how can you ruin my fun?" and the latter, I think, is more insidious and harder to dislodge, because of the immense stigma against "taking things seriously"

(whereas with "how do you separate the art from the artist?" there is at least some implied baseline level of taking it seriously)

I don't think anyone plays 'Panic' out much - or if they do, then it's with an edge.

Also wtf Morrissey being Morrissey is pretty essential to the Smiths?

Oh never mind I just saw R Kelly as someone where you can separate the art from the artist, fuck this thread.

I can see what katherine means. there's a level of theoretical separability to hearing "ignition" at a party vs. watching a standup set or an eponymous TV show writen/directed by/centered around a specific persona

R. Kelly has elements of both, I think -- you have R&B fans, and then you have people who are so pissed that these humorless feminists are taking away their right to lolplay "Ignition (Remix)" at parties

you can't dance to comedy

https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=vgUbRBC2ZE4

the prosecution rests, your honor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_-8SS1LS_c

(he's actually dancing in this one)

my gut here is that a lot of people who enjoy standup specifically want inoffensive comedy. they're looking for something that will entertain them and make them laugh, and are more interested in something that will validate their pre-existing beliefs, whatever those may be, than they are in having those beliefs challenged. weirdly, many people are perfectly happy to accept inoffensive comedy from offensive people. i don't know why that is. compartmentalization or whatever. regardless of how deep people's personal loyalty to louis ck is, his comedy definitely meets a demand and therefore i think it will be a challenge to persuade people to stay away from him.

def can't go to a club these days without the DJ dropping a youtube clip of limmey's show

don't know that I'd classify louis ck's thing as "inoffensive comedy" even if all of this never existed -- it definitely trades on a certain, as much as I hate the word, edginess

in his case it's more self-deprecating bros wanting self-deprecating bro comedy. and for a lot of the people still on board with him, the allegations probably don't create an issue at all because they're just more self-deprecating bro behavior

honestly yeah i wouldn't call CK inoffensive like he's i dunno, carlos mencia or something

the hard part for me in terms of ever listening to him is that too much of the weird sex hangups and dysfunction was a part of his comedy, like it feels really tied to what happened, and i guess sort of manipulative in retrospect...i can't really see just laughing at him like a regular comedian again

not to mention a decent chunk of his comedy dealt with the awfulness of men and all the shitty things women have to put up with from them.

CK Against Humanity

did ums just namecheck carlos mencia's garbage-filled stereotype schtick as "inoffensive"

I mean you could've just swapped in Gaffigan there (and he's actually funny!)

the hard part for me in terms of ever listening to him is that too much of the weird sex hangups and dysfunction was a part of his comedy, like it feels really tied to what happened, and i guess sort of manipulative in retrospect...i can't really see just laughing at him like a regular comedian again

this is v otm tho and exactly how I feel. I can't separate the person from the work in this case, they're too intimately knotted together (same goes for R. Kelly)

in his case it's more self-deprecating bros wanting self-deprecating bro comedy. and for a lot of the people still on board with him, the allegations probably don't create an issue at all because they're just more self-deprecating bro behavior

OTM

His later standup sets and TV shows (especially the middle seasons of Louie) were full of gross, humblebraggy "I'm a regular fucked-up guy but I can be a hero when I need to be" routines which now seem unforgivably dishonest. I couldn't watch new stuff without thinking "what's he hiding now?" or "why isn't he talking about the wanking thing" or "is he still making reparations?"

btw, hang the DJ hang the DJ

Louie the series had some good stuff in it (Lynch/tv show arc probably the best) but it got really tiresome with the "Louie has awkward sex" plots - I mean, he got laid a *lot* in that show, it was ridiculous.

> "why isn't he talking about the wanking thing"

This was about 30% of his routines, and maybe 15% of the FX series.

Do you know anyone that was surprised that Louis C.K. asked colleagues to observe him actually wanking?

not to mention a decent chunk of his comedy dealt with the awfulness of men and all the shitty things women have to put up with from them.

― evol j, Wednesday, August 29, 2018 3:30 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This bothered me a lot about his comedy. It was never just self deprecating, it traded on gender stereotyping that seemed progressive (“grrr those disusting men!”) but really were in the end just exculpatory for disgusting people. When I learned he liked to harass women I wasn’t surprised because I never felt his self loathing and masochistic comedy made him look like “one of the good ones” and was honestly disturbed others felt otherwise

To be frank, he is a guy whose work suggests that he thinks his own sexuality is inherently grotesque. That’s not a good starting point if we want to work to build a better masculinity (cue the original intention of the LJ thread that is now mostly used as an MRA atrocity exhibition hall)

he is a guy whose work suggests that he thinks his own sexuality is inherently grotesque.

it goes beyond suggestion, it's quite overt, and it's clear he thinks it's ingrained/inherent (ergo he can't control it or ultimately be responsible for it cuz hey "that's just how men are amirite")