The Irish

Thanks for the quick replies anyway!

But still I find 'cultural Catholic' quite puzzling here. Surely the 'culture' involves Catholic practice, religious things. I am not sure I see what 'culture' you are left with once you take the religious practice away, except for, to be sure, fine art.

― the pinefox

guilt, hypocrisy

drinking

rushomancy, I think I see, those could be real answers.

I saw lots of the Papal visit today on a silent BBC News 24 screen in a library. He spoke at St Mary's Pro Cathedral about marriage and the family. He seemed quite jocular, talking of how if you are married you can throw plates at each other as long as you make it up by the end of the day.

The curious thing, that I always think, is, what would he know about being married?

"Rimnheh"?

But still I find 'cultural Catholic' quite puzzling here. Surely the 'culture' involves Catholic practice, religious things. I am not sure I see what 'culture' you are left with once you take the religious practice away, except for, to be sure, fine art.

― the pinefox, Saturday, August 25, 2018 1:42 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you've heard of secular jews right

my mom was born in ireland, went to convent school, and is now an atheist but still sort of appreciates the ritual and pageantry of the church, and generally likes jesuits for caring for the poor and believing in eg gravity and evolution

i myself went to catholic school as a child, was never confirmed, never done a catechism, generally repudiate most of the church's teaching, and reflexively crossed myself when i went into a cathedral as a tourist a few weeks ago

which is to say: as an irish person by passport only, i can still appreciate how ritual, practice, dogma, et al can suffuse someone's thinking, despite a more surface level rejection of the faith itself

Ha anytime I'm at my parents, I bless myself with the holy water before the drive home after my mother asks me to

I know enough semi-practising or "cultural" Catholics and enough history of the Church to feel comfortable saying that there's always been lots of people who'd self-define as some form of Catholic without taking specific rules - e.g. contraception - very seriously. The Papacy has never been the only game in town aiui

honestly the best part of being catholic is embracing the little-c

It honestly looks like they've rounded up the most Irish looking people in Ireland for this appearance by the Pope at Croke Park.

I can remember a cousin from Dublin visiting and staying at our house, and my mum, who like her brothers had a rough time in the Irish industrial schools in the 50's and endured every type of abuse. On a Palm Sunday my crazy grandmother was admonishing my poor cousin: "Are you coming to church with me, or staying with these anti-christs?". Obviously my mum had turned against the church at various points of her life because of her and her siblings horrific experiences in the care of the Christian Brothers, but kept flip-flopping on the issue and I still spent plenty of time being dragged to church, and every room in the house had a crucifix or a jesus pic in it. Strong drug is Catholicism.

id have thought guilt hypocrisy and drinking p obv inclusions in my response tbh but

except for, to be sure, fine art.

A rare joke from the pinefox!

Why did the Irishman wear two condoms?

To be sure, to be sure

But still I find 'cultural Catholic' quite puzzling here. Surely the 'culture' involves Catholic practice, religious things. I am not sure I see what 'culture' you are left with once you take the religious practice away, except for, to be sure, fine art.

― the pinefox, Saturday, August 25, 2018 1:42 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you've heard of secular jews right

― gbx, Saturday, August 25, 2018

I think so. I have certainly heard of the idea of 'Jewish' being a very broad category. But I think the comparison somewhat makes the point. We can all think of Jewish food, for instance; I can't think of Catholic food, outside their Communion thing. 'Jewish' does seem to be a 'culture', an 'ethnicity', let alone a 'race', to a degree that 'Catholic' doesn't seem to be.

From what has been said here it seems like 'cultural Catholic' is synonymous with 'lapsed Catholic', or: 'I was brought up to be a Catholic and I still remember lots of that stuff, but I don't believe in god anymore'.

That's OK - I think it was the word 'culture' that was making me wonder.

could go into a catholic/protestant comparison here from observation and experience but tbh pf you do seem a wee bit determined to focus on the observance aspect and not the ingrained social characteristics that might be in the discussion so....

also tbf twould be likely to immediately lapse (ha) into sub ed byrne observational comedy tropes so....

I'm only 'focusing' on it because I don't get what the non-religious 'ingrained social characteristics' are. My whole point was really to ask what they were, and _not_ to focus on 'religious observance'.

I agree that a contrast between (Irish) Catholic / Protestant 'habitus', behaviour, etc (preferably leaving out religious observance stuff) would be a good way to illustrate the issue.

(Though it would surely also risk becoming mixed up with class, wealth, issues that are not theological. Yes I realize that the religious sects in question are deeply historically linked to class but I am trying to see the elements as analytically separate, to understand better what was meant by 'cultural'.)

I think that saying eg 'guilt' is suggestive in one way but also could use more specifics to be helpful as, actually, everyone in the world experiences guilt all the time, except perhaps Donald Trump, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

An old cliché is: 'James Joyce left the church, but retained the Catholic / scholastic way of thinking, which explains the highly structured basis of Ulysses [viz: schemata, etc]'.

I have probably parroted this myself various times but TBH, anyone is capable of making a highly structured basis for a work of art - it's not really clear to an outsider how Catholicism specifically makes it possible.

agreed that it is almost impossible to extricate from everything else, particularly class, wealth and hobbies

protestants have hobbies

maybe we can start there

Though the word 'cultural' puzzled me, if you said something like 'the sociology of Irish Catholicism' or 'the sociological differences between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland', I would understand that fine. The fact that there are thee big social groups defined partly by what was (or still is) a religious heritage, mixed up with class and politics, I do understand.

So, the only thing I didn't really understand was, what exactly was the 'culture'.

*three

Not three: *THESE* big social groups

Is it true, about the hobbies, and 'cultural Catholics' do not have them?

How about 'culturally Irish Catholic'? Or 'culturally Polish Catholic'? Or 'culturally Chilean Catholic'? Etc.

i submit that it is, as a starting position

where a catholic father, held for purposes of conversation to be present and sober, encourages diversion upon a child of either main subdivision, held for purposes of conversation to be a son, that diversion is submitted to be more likely to be in the first instance something useful along the lines physical eg 'the ga' (formally either of the main gaelic sports codes). soccer, the lower athletics and cycling also a likely choice, nothing requiring detailed technical coaching or equipment either to specific, exotic or delicate.

in the second instance yr stereotypically catholic father might offer something useful in lines of trade or technical skill, utility being key here. the child/een might be encouraged towards picking up a wrench or a soldering iron, but something that might in the end game lead to a general type of employment in the type of way that hints at ryanair flights at christmas, 'digs' by way of lodgings and coming home at forty-five with please god enough to build a house in the back field. yr anglo-associated is in this theory more likely to be palmed towards something that can be done quietly in the background in the drawing room, so as to display the variety of learning, good manners and discipline of the child when a vicar or similar calls. anything that might stain a collar or lace of wrist is right out.

musical activities, pre teen independence (outside realm of discussion), might be more likely in the taig tradition to take place in the context of a pipe band, start with the recorder and work yr way through the kilts until you get to the drums kind of thing. social, possibly martial, certainly coded element to it maybe. the other crowd will need to demonstrate the financial and technical prowess of a violin, flute, double bass or etc that needs a tutor, a fancy case and a lack of suitable friends their age in the parish.

yr prod kid he gets attic or bedroom hobbies that are designed not to maximise the social interaction but rather to limit them because sebastian - let us assume like his father- prefers it this way. his train kits or spotting hobbies are such that they can be enjoyed even (especially) while still boxed and organised, and the lists and characteristics of associated items can be learned and recounted to oneself or other enthusiasts with recourse to any activity as such. our lot got the lego our numerous cousins didnt eat.

that kind of thing.

Great fun post Darraghmac.

One might suppose that C & P here simply code into 'working / lower class' and 'middle class'.

But there are w-cl Ps (cf O'Casey) and m-cl Cs (cf ... Anne Enright?).

Maybe at this point in history, there are no longer many working-class Protestants in the Republic?

On reflection I think 'culturally Catholic' woman may have meant

1) I belong to the large group sociologically defined as Irish Catholics, though we don't all believe in god and go to church.

2) I take part in Catholic ceremonies sometimes, but I don't really believe in it - it's 'merely cultural'.

She may not have been thinking of a larger non-ecclesiastical 'Catholic culture' as D-Mac and I have been trying to configure.

I have just bought the IRISH SUNDAY INDEPENDENT.

https://www.independent.ie/

oh god

do report back

It is always quite enjoyable. It tends to contain lots of short columns of 'life experience', 'this life', 'isn't it funny', etc, and a letters page in which at Christmas a reader advises other readers to read A CHRISTMAS CAROL.

It also carries syndicated soccer coverage from the Observer and Telegraph.

http://atomfilms.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Irelands-Own.jpg

http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/3633019/original/?width=382&version=3633019

some Real Ireland gear here, Pinefox.

GiS Ireland's Own front covers is a hell of a wormhole to go down!

oh yes that stuff too

and die hedald for de dubs

It is always quite enjoyable. It tends to contain lots of short columns of 'life experience', 'this life', 'isn't it funny', etc, and a letters page in which at Christmas a reader advises other readers to read A CHRISTMAS CAROL.

That makes it sound like the Sunday Post, but I imagine nowhere near as weird.

I hadn't logged in in weeks and wasn't really thinking about doing so again, but apparently this deeply weird debate about "cultural Catholicism" in an Irish context is the thing that gets me going "lads, lads, LADS", so...

NB these are all quite broad strokes and I recognise some as specific to me and not necessarily applicable to others.

Cultural Catholicism is blessing yourself when you pass a graveyard.
Cultural Catholism is your nana giving you a prayer to St Joseph to help you do well in your exams (and these are something you can buy.) And everyone in your class has one too.
Cultural Catholicism is also praying to St Anthony when you lose something, regardless of beliefor observance, and not ridiculing any suggestion that you do would do so.
Cultural Catholicism is being familiar enough with Mass to know how it goes when you have to go, but being completely thrown by the New Mass (though maybe this is just me).

It's feeling the weird sense of conflict that Leo described yesterday, that knowing that the same Church that educated and helped people is the same one that abused and stole and buried bodies in septic tanks. It's getting defensive whenever a non-Irish person says "why don't you just become Protestant" as though that meant anything, as though your ancestors weren't persecuted for being Catholic, as though it's that easy. As though the comments on British newspapers on Irish topics aren't full of anti-Catholicism, as though that justified everything that was ever done. Why can't you just be rational about this, you know the Church considers you a second-class citizen, right?

It's having priests come round to dinner even if your family never go to Mass. It's interacting with nuns at school. It's burying your dead within a few days. It's the way the news starts a minute late because of the Angelus. It's a million little things that are embedded in us and are totally alien to outsiders and the way we never think about that until it's brought up or have reason to think about it.

It's mocking people you disagree with politically as soup takers

And for me specifically:
- never eating meat on Good Friday even though I never go to Mass & don't consider myself religious (and even though American Catholics apparently don't eat meat on any Friday?)
- sometimes wanting to get married in a Catholic ceremony even though I'm non-observant (and they make you promise to raise children Catholic)

I'm sure there was a third but I might have written it above. Anyway. Probably not helpful.

no no its all good

i mean i recognise all of it, tho im not sure thats all of it but thats all def part of it

i dont do any of that stuff ito the behaviourals, but still think of myself as culturally catholic because even that secondary stuff is the personal primordial basis for who i am kinda thing if thats in any way coherent?

gyac otm

We can all think of Jewish food, for instance; I can't think of Catholic food, outside their Communion thing.

Leaving aside the assertion of "Jewish food" as a single category, the second part is also nonsense. It's less obvious because of Catholic hegemony in many countries but half the pastry traditions of western Europe, food eaten on Christmas/Easter/other feast days, bad dried fish because you need something to eat on Fridays = Catholic food.

Not that surprising as Catholicism had the field to itself, in the West anyway, for 1500 years.

Xxxxp

Did like 80% of that

One thing is the culturally part comes in because of family or being close to people with a shared background

When i travel or lived in a different country/city a long time it’s almost like i never was catholic but i think that is specific to north america, where there are these micro/family size (sub)cultures, unlike a large unifying one

But i read what you say and do think my family fit that mould, not so much the new american generation though

I guess it’s a feeling that people are holding you accountable for things

Calzino, yes, that looks like a magazine that is even (or a lot) further down the ethos I am describing than the newspaper is.

The newspaper features a lot of reports mainly saying 'Ireland is liberal now and the Pope must get used to it' and a long one attacking anonymous liberals and intellectuals for supposedly being anti-Catholic. It is a paper that is always full of opinions.

The one thing I have not seen said much is the thing that would seem more obvious perhaps in other contexts, ie: this Pope is unusual and in lots of ways more interesting and positive than other Popes. The coverage of the Irish visit (certainly BBC, and also the paper that I have read thus far) has tended to ignore that amid representing him as head of Catholicism in general.

Actually it features at least 3 articles attacking liberals, as 'the new PC priestly caste' who have replaced the old Catholic order.

turnout is in

<25% the forecast

At Phoenix Park?

ya

130k vs 600k

a very small turnout compared to what was expected alright

Jewish culture not a good analogue for whatever pt is attempting to be made about a non-religious culture of catholicism fyi