that thing white ppl do when they disparage 'white ppl'

yeah exactly dumbshit

xxpost Mark Maron had a joke that the black population of Ireland was the statue of Phil Lynott

The whole vibe of your post is filled with buts and idk’s

Anyway not that i care what you think just wanted to have a serious mo for a sec

Good luck w lyfe buddy

honestly, any white american person that is super in to their ancestry or ethnic identity is kinda sketch to me tbh (*past maybe 2nd generation)

idk I think more white Americans should dig into their ancestry and see exactly how many slaveowners they're descended from. I did.

I actually have a photo of one of my confederate officer ancestors, the family resemblance is p uncanny (fwiw I had family on both sides of the war). We also have his tax records, his um wealth decreased by 75% following the war.

(Jewish side of my family didn't arrive until after the war - went straight to Carson City, NV)

lol here's my aunt's summary - census data, not tax records, and it's considerably worse than 75%:

"John Davis Chattin b. 1807
Bought land in Rhea County, TN. Some ofthe original farm stiil owned by Chattins. He received a commission in the Tennessee Militia in 1842. He served as a colonel in the Confederacy during the war. Census data from 1860 shows his real estate worth $17,000; personal property worth $10,000. After the war real estate valued at $6,000, personal property at $500. Damn yankees."

(that last remark is a joke btw)

#witehumblebragging

one of the difficulties i have with the totalizing premise being espoused is it would lead to describing the Nazis as ethnicists

― the Joao looked at Jonny (Noodle Vague), Friday, August 10, 2018 5:18 AM (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how so? im pretty sure that the nazis didn't have great things to say about black people so that makes no sense

My point was more that in some circumstances the best anti-racist position is to include some structural prejudice against white people in your definition of racism.

This is not to minimise or deny the framework we’re talking about.

― Tim, Friday, August 10, 2018 1:04 AM (twelve hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you say this disclaimer but that's ... essentially the effect of it. We have a white irish person on this board explaining that you can be racist against whites because he's a part of a country that's been on the receiving end of oppressive policies or colonization or what have you, but he would (i assume?) still not define himself as IE a black irish person...which means in his mind there really are "raced" people and un-raced people... I don't know how you can argue that "racism" is what he's experienced

I mean this definition is the whole problem with this thread, right? It's not even necessarily white colonial subjects - there's a certain type of racist in the UK who would have no problem with black British people (some genuinely, others at least wouldn't admit to it, which is far from the same thing) but starts frothing at the mouth at the sight or mention of first-generation white Eastern European immigrants. It's not a stretch to say that the treatment of Muslims in the UK in some ways parallels the ways in which Irish people in the UK were treated 30/40 years ago etc.

The difference is that second and third generation white immigrant communities are 'allowed' to assimilate much more quickly than non-white ones, particularly Muslims.

― Matt DC, Friday, August 10, 2018 3:44 AM (ten hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

again, it's not about degree. It's not about who 'froths at the mouth.' someone can have 'no problem with' a person and still be racist towards them. see: again, the example of me embarrassing myself w/r/t Rwanda upthread.

if you guys still see 'racism' as 'frothing at the mouth' you don't actually understand what racism is

* insert facetious comment about the Black Irish here *

itt i keep feeling like im getting accused of thinking im better than everyone or thinking i have access to 'the truth' better than them. if it helps the debate at all, i don't feel that way, but i DO feel like this effort to marginalize my perspective as being wholly based on some american discourse 1. is ignorant about this argument's origins in the first place, but more importantly 2. don't actually understand what arguments are being made.

so over & over you're like "here are specific examples that contradict [our imagined idea of] what you're arguning," and I'm reiterating a framework that i feel is being completely misunderstood, because the people arguing with me have decided to marginalize it as 'an american thing' without thinking it through or because they simply dont respect me personally

do think its ironic that you have an entire post two up from the presumed perspective of an Irish poster then have a post imemdiately about how all the supposed projection on to you is disrespectful

that said, happy for irish never to be mentioned again itt

its a separate thing to the claim that you cant be racist against white ppl

which flows from the very forced definition that racism is only structural racism

repeating this is not going to make any more people agree with it is the thing

and uh...same to you?

at this point im less concerned w persuading people to agree than persuading them to actually comprehend the system they've kneejerk marginalized, as i said in the post directly above yours

I'm honestly surprised deej has apparently never read The Invention of the White Race?

im aware of its argument

https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-03-02.htm

For whatever it's worth, the conversation you link (thanks, it was interesting) matches and enriches my previous understanding of the difference between race and ethnicity.

In that conversation, "Jewish" is defined as ethnicity rather than race, and by your logic, D-40, anti-semitism would therefore be excluded from your definition of racism. I would not be comfortable with that.

I have various other thoughts about this conversation but they're probably best expressed when (a) I'm sober and (b) I've had the chance to think about them carefully.

antisemitism is distinct from racism for a whole lot of reasons

way older, for one thing

“The Invention of the white race” describes how the Irish were not considered white... but now are. There is a begging the question issue when someone says “you can be racist against white people” bc they would not have been white at the time that people were racist towards them

In my experience, I've worked with east-asians that were certain that they were racially superior to whites (and other east-asians cultures).

That did not make me, a white person, a victim of racism but surely the notion that only whites have the exclusively of this kind vileness is not same has having the exclusivity on power structures that allow us to be racist and further systemic racism.

“The Invention of the white race” describes how the Irish were not considered white... but now are. There is a begging the question issue when someone says “you can be racist against white people” bc they would not have been white at the time that people were racist towards them

... in the USA. Again. The Irish were discriminated against in the UK but never on the basis that they weren't white, being Catholic was bad enough. So, seems to me to be another example of the uniqueness of the American situation.

You don’t think there’s a better word for ppl who discriminate against Catholics than “racist”? Lol

Yes, because I happen to agree with you it wasn't racism. Those Irish who weren't considered white in the USA were the wrong type of Irish, as I would assume all those Ulster Protestant settlers who have enabled numerous US Presidents to claim Irish ancestry, had absolutely no problems being accepted as white.

There are viable, real-world, in-use definitions of the word racism that clearly and explicitly include ethnic discrimination. UNESCO's does, for example. I understand the difference between race and ethnicity and I (dimly, as white man) understand the global framework of white supremacism as outlined by tsrobodo, who I hope I haven't irritated too much, but I still think it's possible, and sometimes useful, to allow that broader definition of racism that includes ethnic discrimination.

I'm arguing that under different social and cultural conditions it makes sense to use different definitions of the word: the thing is to use the power of the word in the way is most useful in actually fighting discrimination.

So (for example) in the US right now I can see that shutting down the idea of "anti-Irish racism" (for example) is very useful because that concept is being deployed deliberately to defuse any conversation about white supremacism and racial discrimination.

But in other places (let's say the UK right now, in respect of anti-Semitism) the opposite effect is true: if we were to exclude anti-Semitism from the idea of racism that would help the anti-Semites, it would give them an excuse to not think about the nature of their anti-Semitism but to have the conversation tangle up in definitions of race and ethnicity (these conversations are interesting for us, here, but not very helpful in actually persuading people to think about the structures and preconceptions that lead to racial discrimination).

It's not that I "don't understand what racism is", though like most white people, and maybe most human beings, I will always have a lot to learn about its evils and its subtleties. It's that I'm arguing for a flexible and nuanced approach to the use of the word. Upthread tsrobodo said “It has always been a question of who controls the literal terms of the debate cause there's so much at stake in just that.” I am arguing that it’s good to (critically and consciously) accept a definition of racism that includes ethnic discrimination in order to allow actual ethnically-discriminated groups to use the power of that word.

I don't know, I'm fumbling through I am prepared to accept that all of that's wrong, and (for all the good faith that I'm smugly crediting myself with) I'm just enabling a kind of hand-waving that defuses resistance to the grim history of racist oppression. But I do know for sure that when a Jewish person tells me they've experienced racism, I'm not going to be thinking "you don't understand what racism is".

Deej telling me that I don't actually understand what racism is is so close to being peak Deej that I'm too busy being amused and delighted it actually happened to feel offended.

Like seriously you can whine about being insufficiently respected all you want but you cannot at the same time tell a person of colour they don't understand what racism is and expect to come away without a severe clowning at the very least.

If you read my post again the bit in brackets acknowledges the exact point you're making and I was very careful to put that in.

antisemitism is distinct from racism for a whole lot of reasons

Hitler specifically used the word 'race' (Rasse) when talking about Jews. To wit:

Der Jude ist als Ferment der Dekomposition (nach Mommsen) losgelöst von gut oder böse des einzelnen Ursache des inneren Zusammenbruchs aller Rassen überhaupt, in die er als Parasit eindringt. Seine Tätigkeit ist Zweckbestimmung seiner Rasse.

Here's a translation I found online:

The Jew releases the ferment of decomposition (see Mommsen), and is the single cause, whether for good or ill, of the spiritual breakdown of all those races on earth, into which he wormed his way as a parasite. All his activities are purposely and racially determined.

How on earth is this not racism?

well there are a whole lot of reasons

HITLER LISTEN UP

Whoa didnt kno he read ilx

This is kind of a ridiculous story. So I grew up in Virginia and of course they teach about the Holocaust, show Schindler's List in class etc. I had a complete disconnect about why the Jewish were persecuted probably until I was in my late 20s, after living in NYC for years and years. Basically, to me (who had a non-white mother/Buddhist, white father/non-practicing Catholic) who was brought up non-religious, I was always like, in all these pictures they look white, how could people possibly know they were Jewish; why would they care? I've told this story to some of my Jewish friends who I somehow had always missed that they were Jewish, and they stare at me "you do know my last name is (insert some very Jewish last name), etc." And me, "I don't know, you are just a white dude to me!"

This also happened with a longtime co-worker who mentioned being Italian once (she had a very Italian last name and I guess an Italian-American accent, even though to me that just read as NY) and me "You're Italian?!?" To me she's just white!

Like seriously you can whine about being insufficiently respected all you want but you cannot at the same time tell a person of colour they don't understand what racism is and expect to come away without a severe clowning at the very least.

If you read my post again the bit in brackets acknowledges the exact point you're making and I was very careful to put that in.

― Matt DC, Saturday, 11 August 2018 09:50 (seven hours ago) Permalink

I really don’t think I’ve said anything you should be offended by & I don’t understand what you said in brackets (you mean parentheses?) The part about intent? That’s not congruent w what I’m saying at all, any framework of racism I’ve ever seen makes it clear racism is not determined by “intent”

I regret the wording of that post already LOL but I am mystified what I’ve said that would be construed that way. If I did say something offensive I apologize but I’m genuinely not sure what that would be

*obviously* you are welcome to be offended by whatever you want.

These last three were bad posts & other than the Rwanda/Sudan ones upthread I regret them as much bc I feel like they undermine some pretty important wider arguments which I 100% stand by, & I think they’ve unfortunately made this conversation much different to have...

You don’t think there’s a better word for ppl who discriminate against Catholics than “racist”?

howzabout "bigots"?

The year is 2251. White Genocide has eliminated all trace of the Irish Race. All...save one

In the ruins of South Boston, one Irish dad struggles to feed his family as war threatens from all sides. One Irishman...will take a stand.

This Summer, Mark Wahlberg is Sole Dad O'Brien

— Jeff Van Fundme (@lbourgie) August 11, 2018

an oasis of mild lol in a desert of

So his family isn't Irish?

Soledad O'Brien - Mexican Irish.

Xxxp Ha + ha xp = 2 has out of 5

#peaktwittercomedy

The Lone Irish starring Atahualpa is a tale of one man’s race to rescue his entire village. But will his very race survive the horses trodding on the rich, bloody veins of the earth he calls home?

[Liam Neeson voice]

as the token irish person to be told how to irish itt pls no more discussion of irish

No ones telling irish ppl how to irish bud

☘️