that thing white ppl do when they disparage 'white ppl'

afaict this whole argument boils down to certain Europeans being offended by the suggestion that a matrix of white supremacy underlies (or intersects with or overlaps with) ethnic divisions within Europe. Which has a certain irony to it given the historical prevalence of white people reinforcing white supremacist structures by denying that they exist at all, or apply to them directly. A cruder way of putting this would be pointing out that the flashpoint for the conflict itt was the intimation that the Irish bore some connection to blackness in their centuries-long conflict with the English, and how irritated certain people got about that.

You're so far off the mark there it's remarkable!

That doesn't really characterise it for me - not at all. I just think given the thread title it was worth exploring the fact that white people can be minorities that are discriminated against and the circumstances in which that happens. Again, not as an attempt to minimise any other experiences but to broaden understanding if anything.

I don't resist the idea that as a white person I benefit from and reinforce white supremacy.

D40's post about the Irish in England just seemed presumptuous to me, deeply, and spurious. I wasn't offended by it I just read it as a huge assumption based on very little.

The jibes of the last 40 posts aside I've nothing against him as a poster and was trying to defuse things a bit by now.

I would be happy if we could be civil and also if we don't make this some kind of battle about which continent is less racist or something. That feels like the worst road we could possible have gone down.

possibly*

Could an element of 'the problem' with this be that certain Americans who are usually the first to admit their country has terrible problems with racism suddenly get very defensive when it's suggested that perhaps this issue (if not its underlying causes!) is currently managed a bit better in other places? Not saying that this is definitely the case, but it would explain a lot.

(xp) the Irish/ blackness thing was ridiculous though.

Xp Oh God this is going to get me heavily flagged, even though I have just been basically called a nazi for being from Europe.

gerry_adams_django_tweet.jpg

You're so far off the mark there it's remarkable!

Nice that the thread is now just a big pile of white people disparaging each other. And everyone is annoyed! Great validation for poll result nice work all round

<thumbs up emoji>

perhaps this issue (if not its underlying causes!) is currently managed a bit better in other places?

are you arguing that Europe is better at managing its white supremacist impulses and history than America cuz um

im not annoyed i just wish white ppl could learn to get along tbh

I mean getting into a "who is more racist" pissing match doesn't seem like the best use of time, can't we just admit it's bad all over

xp

"currently"
"Europe"

Could an element of 'the problem' with this be that certain Americans who are usually the first to admit their country has terrible problems with racism suddenly get very defensive when it's suggested that perhaps this issue (if not its underlying causes!) is currently managed a bit better in other places? Not saying that this is definitely the case, but it would explain a lot.

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, August 8, 2018 12:15 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No one on the “American” side (and again I don’t know why tsrobodo is characterized this way) has said America is less racist or has managed things “better” than europe, we’ve stuck to the way these arguments are articulated on this thread

Only one side of this conversation keeps suggesting that maybe Europeans have figured things out better lmao

I know you guys (meaning euro ilxors not all Europeans) feel this way; it’s been obvious the entire thread. But it seems very presumptuous (and how would you even measure such a thing)

I'm arguing that the American model isn't universal AND that Europe is no less racist than the US, for what it's worth.

We’ve barely touched on antisemitism btw. Maybe because Jews are considered white in the US?

"currently"
"Europe"

okay so ... not Europe as a whole? Just the UK? France? Germany? Hungary? Poland? Italy? yeah they are real great on the race relations these days, how's it going integrating those migrant muslim communities and electing actual fascist/racist parties to yr parliaments

I said I didn't want to do this and yet

Maybe because Jews are considered white in the US?

oh please

now you ARE pissing me off

D40 this is literally you, within the last 10 minutes

Not sure how anyone could think the continent that birthed the nazi party in our grandparents lifetime might still have lingering issues with race

You just look at the fact that Europe is richer than Africa, and because you know nothing about the specific history behind those differences you use it as a 'gotcha' to say that actually it's only white/black racism that matters, and anytime someone from Europe tries to talk about the many many events and details that influenced the current situation you begin dismissing it as myopic and provincial.
I’m sorry for bringing up old shit but I’m still *mind blown* that Frederick of all people, the poster who spends so much time as the voice of progressive moralism in American political threads, got so defensive itt that he misrepresented the entire argument via a “booming post”, contending that someone somewhere said “black/white racism is the only thing that matters” (?!?!!!! Who said this?)

ask avowed American racists how "white" they think Jews are, there's your answer

xp

this thread is dumb. everyone who has posted a bunch in it in the last few days has made dumb posts.

I don't think any 'side' has figured it out better, on the proviso that no-one's figured it out at all, the fact that they're trying to figure it out differently doesn't seem acceptable to certain American posters.

Xp pointing out europe has lingering racial issues (to say the least) is not vindicating or exonerating American racial issues!! You are defensive!!

this thread is definitely covering important issues in an effective way

It’s a thinly veiled paean to provincialism.

are you arguing that Europe is better at managing its white supremacist impulses and history than America cuz um

iirc police officers in european countries generally don't have carte blanche to shoot/kill minorities

Apart from France, of course.

English cops usually kill black people in private tbf

A lot of dodgy staircases in need of repair in UK cop shops.

are you arguing that Europe is better at managing its white supremacist impulses and history than America cuz um

iirc police officers in european countries generally don't have carte blanche to shoot/kill minorities

― groovemaaan, Wednesday, August 8, 2018 11:00 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xp. a uk policeman has never been convicted of murder on duty, there are many dubious deaths of people in custody, and some shootings. i have no doubt POC are overrepresented among the victims

some recent examples include the killings of mark duggan, edson da costa, sheku bayoh, azelle rodney, sean rigg

I'm not defending white cops

that wasn't an xp to you sorry, just groovemaan

This here is what we call a sausage fest hombres

guys after you've finished logistically beating each other down can you please wipe the surfaces with disinfectant as a courtesy to others

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand)

Doesn't everybody pay an Eastern European to do that for them these days?

My cue then.

*disparages ‘white people’*

should we start a separate thread for "that thing Americans do when they disparage Europeans about racism"

for my part, last time

the wide gap in opinion on the topic of whether race can be genuinely set aside as a personal primary self-identifier in favour of other self-identifying characteristics- and the p clear (with apologies to tsoborodo as a standalone voice nationality-wise here afaict, but tbh so be it, he is in the ameeican school for the purposes) split on the strong opinions held would sugggest that there is a v definite 'american' school of thought here.

that is of no suprise to anyone who has been any length of time on ilx tbh.

the fact that the american school insist at length and repeatedly that it is not possible for other cultures to self-identify other than as ordained by this american orthodoxy is preposterous, presumptuous, etc

all other discussion, interesting or not as it may be, true or not as it may be, elides that this is the foundational dispute in the last few days of the thread.

/sorry for repetition but

The only people dividing this into “America vs Europe” as if it these ideologies were a natural outgrowth of our nationalities are those on the “ilx-european” side of the debate, imo bc it adds credence to their argument that a contrary perspective to ours *simply can’t be understood* by outsiders; I maintain that the POV that race overlays interactions across the world is not an ideology tied to any specific location but is more tied up in post colonial studies which attempt to push back at the same kind of nationalism that drives both right American and right european populist movements, and have underlying racist ideologies

rather than seeing it as my saying *you don't understand* it, can i ask you to focus on the part where you are telling the other side of the debate that *they cannot really self-identify the way they think they do*.

your reasoning behind this position is imo of secondary importance.

fwiw i think we can be sure that everyone itt would agree that race is an input into interactions across the world, its whether or not 'overlays' in yr sentence presumes to dictate the level of this which is where practically everyone on, lets give up on subtlety and call it the european side, is taking issue.

and again, im not sure where the slip from "self identifying in the first instance as white" (which i think is vv important part of the thread context) is churning into "considers race a constant underlying factor in human social dynamics" but its part if where each side here seems to be talking at cross-purposes

Man, have we not hammered this thing out yet?

we are if nothing else behaving better this time around

I promise we will have the correct response to white supremacy worked out by tomorrow at 3:15pm EST

xp

I knew you could do it.

what time is that in post-racism land