that thing white ppl do when they disparage 'white ppl'

I think it's fairly uncontroversial that the predominant global systems of difference were religious from the rise of the christianity until... the C17th?

I woke up haunted by this terrible sentence, it's not true for at least most of the world, but the rest stands. early colonial figures like columbus saw the world through an often evangelical religious framework. a sense of racial difference in anything like the modern sense and the vocabulary to go with it was only just starting to develop at that time

I see the medieval poc tumblr is sadly no more, now just on twitter, but that was full of v interesting illustrations of how modern ideas of colour and race are incommensurable with medieval ideas of blackness and difference. it's not that people didn't read significance into skin colour, it's that they did it differently

What exactly have Americans posited in this thread you guys disagree w? Like, what is so objectionable about this “American” consensus (pretending for the moment that anything I’ve argued is actually somehow more provincial than the European ilxor argument)

not messing im actually just waiting on one or two more sentences that make up a good round ten for a poll

its been good tho almost like old ilx

The American consensus mostly makes sense for the US at the moment but is short-sighted when applied elsewhere. I could do without the bullheaded attempts at cultural colonisation universalisation.

Not that this hasn't been repeated ad nauseam already.

Well for one thing, d-40, you don't seem to know a single thing about the subject at hand. Confusing Rwanda and Sudan, seemingly not knowing about the Ottoman empire colonizing large swaths of Europe, continuing to think Ireland benefited from colonialism that killed millions. You just look at the fact that Europe is richer than Africa, and because you know nothing about the specific history behind those differences you use it as a 'gotcha' to say that actually it's only white/black racism that matters, and anytime someone from Europe tries to talk about the many many events and details that influenced the current situation you begin dismissing it as myopic and provincial.

To sum up, half the time you're writing: It is tough to have a conversation w people abt a serious subject when they haven’t done the knowledge yeah and the other half the time complaining that we don't consider the importance of Andre 3000s choice of shirt.

What exactly have Americans posited in this thread you guys disagree w?

I don't think there's always a neat distinction between race and ethnicity for one, or that this is a minor point

I think it's fairly uncontroversial that the predominant global systems of difference were religious from the rise of the christianity until... the C17th? religion definitely shaped early colonialism more than any nascent sense of biological race. maybe you can see the obsession with blood and lineage in post-reconquista spain as a sort of transitional system that expressed an anxiety that had religious and sort of racial elements

― ogmor, Wednesday, August 8, 2018 1:42 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Great, except this isn't about what shaped early colonialism, but a question of what formed the basis of the model of race we use today.

Religion served primarily as a source of justification, We must bring the light of god to the heathen savages, even if it means having to own their land and resources. The role it played in colonialism did not form the basis of a global system of difference.

Where such a system does manifest is in British officials measuring noses and grading skin tone in India crystallising a race based caste system there. It manifests in the divide and rule tactics used by all the imperial powers.

Such systems of difference were founded in various schools of pseudo-scientific thought, the vast majority of which propagated hierarchical models of race. That is where the modern conception of race comes from. The terms we use and the characteristics we stress today, stem directly from that period of time.

These ideas were so compelling and so widely internalised, that being thoroughly discredited through the revelation of genetics wasn't nearly enough to shift the foundations of racialism.

If America seems preoccupied with this it's because it would never be able to externalise this legacy the way in which most European powers have chosen to.

Should also probably clarify, I'm not a yank. The Americanness of my perspective boils down to 2 years of middle school and family ties. Was born in and have lived the vast majority of my life in England, where in the national curriculum, empire and colonialism are treated as little more than awkward footnotes.

Every time someone says “American obsession of race” you get a good impression of where they’d stand on colonial reparations

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, August 8, 2018 5:37 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I am English, my wife is Chinese, our two boys are therefore mixed race, but raising them in the UK (or to be exact a very liberal, multicultural part of the UK) this never even seems to be noticed, let alone made an issue / a reason to stereotype / a source of expectations. Meanwhile in America this would apparently make them "Hapas" which has a whole load of this sort of baggage - I remember reading this - https://stuffeurasianslike.wordpress.com/ - and being just horrified. For this reason I feel glad that they are growing up somewhere they can be themselves rather than defined by racial or ethnic descriptors.
So where do I stand on colonial reparations? I think the British Empire is one of the most shameful things in history, what we did in China in particular is disgusting and disgraceful, we still benefit unfairly from what we did there, and yes of course there should be extensive reparations as well as proper education in British schools into what we did there. Little hope for any of this of course, due to the many failings of the country, the people, the media, and our leaders.
Are these two things somehow contradictory?

tbc I don't think religion has been a globally-pervasive system of difference. the points of disagreement here as I see them are about to what extent modern racism can be thought of as a consistent, globally-pervasive system, and how it interacts with other senses of difference. it's the issue of why&when you might see tackling islamophobia as part of a wider anti-racism & anti-imperialism, and why&when you might treat it separately.

xp

Really interesting read that but it seems more a matter of internally ascribed identity based on his interpretation of the forces that brought his parents together and what that says about his value as he transitions into manhood, rather than a source of external pressure.

This isn't a question of place, the terminology might not be used but there's no reason why this couldn't play out in the same way in the U.K. for a half Chinese boy who feels his sense of manhood is undermined by proximity to whiteness in the form of the WMAF dynamic.

And not to belabour the point, that very dynamic stems in part from the legacy of racial classification and the elevation of whiteness during the colonial period.

Every time someone says “American obsession of race” you get a good impression of where they’d stand on colonial reparations

If they were American, yes, but, surpisingly to a lot of Americans it would seems, not everyone is American.

would love to see the UK or US trying their old gunboat diplomacy game on China these days!

http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Preview/16063648.jpg

(link because huge.)

tbc I don't think religion has been a globally-pervasive system of difference. the points of disagreement here as I see them are about to what extent modern racism can be thought of as a consistent, globally-pervasive system, and how it interacts with other senses of difference. it's the issue of why&when you might see tackling islamophobia as part of a wider anti-racism & anti-imperialism, and why&when you might treat it separately.

― ogmor, Wednesday, August 8, 2018 11:32 AM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Any attempts to draw a historical through-line in the epistemology of race itt have been dismissed outright as a preoccupation with a distinctly American model.

From my point of view the existence of this global framework should not be a point of contention at all. It does not serve to obscure other senses of difference or preclude the exploration of the many nuances and contradictions.

Every serious thinker on race I've encountered conceives of a world where a global white supremacy holds sway.

would love to see the UK or US trying their old gunboat diplomacy game on China these days!

tsrobodo - sorry, no, this is absolutely a thing, I have spent my adult life working with British, American and other people of different races and mixed races and am 100% sure that the Americans I know define themselves by their race or ethnicity much more than anyone else, with the possibile exception of Chinese and Japanese people. The idea of creating new terminology for micro-ethnicities reflects this, as does the idea that people are "Irish" or "German" or whatever because that's where their ancestors are from.

It is fascinating to talk about colonial history and how it has led to a global white supremacy, and that's definitely the case, but it's not a monolith, it exists in different ways in different places, and in a place like China it comes into conflict with a whole other load of racist nonsense. There is a difference between these general truths and the way they have been applied to everyday life.

I remember watching this doc on an afro-american soldier captured by China during the Korean war, and then he became a Chinese citizen for CCP propaganda exercise. He lived there quite happily apparently, until the Cultural Revolution years, and he said something like: when the Chinese stop calling you Comrade, and start calling you Mister, you know you are in big trouble and it's time to gtf out of there!

Nothing you've described about how whiteness is coded in America isn't also true of Europe.

― tsrobodo, Tuesday, August 7, 2018 5:59 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

parallel evolution of bad ideas imo, with some common roots

this is connected to the extent that The West is hegemonic I think. and I don't believe that hegemony is global

or not total, anyhoo

Australia is not getting enough credit for being racist, unfair imo

I quite explicitly addressed your first point despite it not even being relevant to the thrust of the argument I was making,

If America seems preoccupied with this it's because it would never be able to externalise this legacy the way in which most European powers have chosen to.

This isn't about which element of self identification is most prominent. That has no bearing at all on the argument I'm making about an overarching framework. Whether you think about your identity once or 50 times a day the framework you use comes from the same place.

If you think I'm arguing for some kind of monolith then you're either misreading me or simply ignoring the caveats I include for sole the benefit of not being misconstrued.

It does not serve to obscure other senses of difference or preclude the exploration of the many nuances and contradictions.

This isn't to say that whiteness is the sole lens through which all racism and racial conflict must be evaluated

this is connected to the extent that The West is hegemonic I think. and I don't believe that hegemony is global

― the Joao looked at Jonny (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, August 8, 2018 1:42 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It is connected to which the west was hegemonic. and that was global.

white ppl tho

xxp you said

This isn't a question of place, the terminology might not be used but there's no reason why this couldn't play out in the same way in the U.K. for a half Chinese boy who feels his sense of manhood is undermined by proximity to whiteness in the form of the WMAF dynamic

There’s a blog called WMAF?

No, this one I posted earlier https://stuffeurasianslike.wordpress.com

the English are atrocious racists

to tsrobodo:

the contradictions and changes within white supremacy are revealing and significant, but they don't mean it doesn't exist. if someone insists that the rwandan genocides are to be understood only as ethnic conflict then I would say that can obscure the role that racist ideas played in them, but otherwise I agree. there are senses in which some pre-modern anti-black prejudice resembles modern racism, and senses in which it doesn't.

the English are atrocious racists

― No organ. (crüt), Wednesday, 8 August 2018 14:27 (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

tbf nobody on any side here defending thw english

Xxxp

Oh

Tbf i think the half east asian/half white males who display that type of behaviour are very much in the minority, thankfully

Though i did notice them more in the us than in canada

Lots of those half east asian males on reddit don’t seem mentally stable, using some weird sense of logic (eg “my parents following the WMAF trend,” which like you’re 30 some odd years old now, it wasn’t a trend back then you doofus)

That blog was kind of scary.

xxp you said

This isn't a question of place, the terminology might not be used but there's no reason why this couldn't play out in the same way in the U.K. for a half Chinese boy who feels his sense of manhood is undermined by proximity to whiteness in the form of the WMAF dynamic
And I am saying nope, it absolutely is a question of place, his whole thing comes out of growing up I'm a society where racial and ethnic identity is foregrounded much more than it is elsewhere, US culture never seems more alien to me than when I'm reading that blog.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, August 8, 2018 2:17 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I mean, I'm reading exactly what he as an Asian-American man is saying here.
At no point does he place his grievances at the feet of a more identity conscious environment.

On the other hand he explicitly and repeatedly identifies the issues of hapa men as Western and not uniquely American.

and I mean... you're presumably not a minority so is it any wonder that it feels alien to you? Is it not the case that many ethnic/racial minorities experience that part of their identities more acutely just by default?

I'm not saying his preoccupation with this is at all healthy but I only have to look at how black men in both Europe and the US are hypersexualised (often trading on that in ways that are similarly unhealthy) to be able to draw a relatable parallel.

want to thank tsrobodo for the clarity of his quality posts itt

want to thank fred b for his booming takedown above

now on with the programme

Fred's post does not address tsrobodo at all

jesus christ

where was there any inference that it did ffs

youre skirting truther territory itt its creepy. just cant figure out yr actual cause tbh.

Tsrobodo, yes, I am a white man and cannot speak for any member of a minority, however the anecdotes told in that blog involve not only him but many other people, perhaps half of them white males, and it's these interactions that sound alien to me, a person who mainly interacts with people not of the same ethnicity as myself. As he states himself, he is sharing his experiences rather than offering solutions, and his experiences are clearly within an environment where people are hyper-aware of granular ethnic difference.

where was there any inference that it did ffs

sorry your post immediately following mine and mimicking the phrasing of my post didn't have anything to do with the content of my post, how could I possibly have misunderstood

youre being obtuse

one can be amused at the gush and the gusher and not have an issue with the gushé

also fwiw the reader infers, the writer implies

maybe you know this, hard to tell

and im asking whither yr inference, which was a reach and a half.

“Booming post”! It’s an amazing post considering how often Fred tries to enter conversations about American race relations and politics w no concept of what he’s talking about ie when he was accusing Bruce Springsteen of reactionary apologism bc he appealed to working class people

But I’m glad I’m here so darragh has someone to pretend to be smugly superior to while his argument is taken apart piece by piece by someone he refused to engage with

xp i speak good english though

nice jibe in a thread where you consistently belittle amongst other things my nations conversion to that language by an oppressor state over the past three hundred years

fancy making a famine swipe while yer at it

guys after you've finished logistically beating each other down can you please wipe the surfaces with disinfectant as a courtesy to others

xp lol who would that be?

afaict tsorobodo, if that be yr nominated sense-maker, is an order better than the restvof those arguing against a non-racial primary personal identity as even an option, but only tangentially discussing this. not much, as ive said, to engage with there.

and given that freds post about you was wholly accurate, id look twice before throwing 'smug' around tbph?

xp you *moved* to england idk what to do with you tbh!

no rancour tho guys its a good thread and i think weve all learned something

All my posts are booming compared to Bruce Springsteen