Democratic (Party) Direction

hurting & simon otm imo; GOTV for strategically important candidates is among the most important things to be doing, i agree, and i want to maximize active participation on that front. I also think, more and more, that outside of key places where it makes a lot of sense (like an AOC, or Salazar, or Lee Carter in VA), that the kind of work we're talking about is best done by the likes of Our Revolution, Indivisible, Swing Left, and the overflowing portfolio of local orgs also doing such work. As a friend put it to me the other day, channeling the energy of the Bernie & Bernie-adjacent left into important races with spiritually compatible candidates is literally what Our Rev is for. DSA's comparatively limited resources aren't, in all cases, best suited to that work--in lots of places things like tenant organizing & other housing work, the brake light clinics, organized labor support, are likely the most strategic use of limited local chapter resources.

All that, plus I would love to see DSA to eventually (like, at least a decade down the line probably) form the basis of a viable workers' party and electoral work isn't much help with that. :)

I do think it's important to differentiate between a party in the electoral sense and a party in the mass sense of the term--I'd like to see the latter and Refoundation Caucus has that in mind (I'm applying to join), but under our current conditions I don't think an electoral left third party is an especially viable or desirable proposition. But again that's for the other thread.

Mass (Party) Direction

I’m v. annoyed I got tricked into arguing with a third party fantasist

under our current conditions I don't think an electoral left third party is an especially viable or desirable proposition

def not

it's extremely important to begin to build functioning leftist services and infrastructure in advance of leftist electoral victory. aside from saving lives immediately one reason to do this is that it gets out the vote. but in doing so it makes grassroots candidates dependent on and emergent from a preexisting and independent worker power base, rather than simply promising still-atomized workers that sudden power lies on the other side of an election or two provided they are loyal to a celebrity. candidates become delegates promising representation instead of messiahs promising agency.

dingaling

tom, I'm not in DSA but I know a lot of really smart people who are and who have very developed positions and arguments on all of the things you are talking about. And they don't all agree with each other, but there is a pretty strong contingent in NYC DSAs pushing for the use of the democratic ballot line for socialist candidates, while also not just backing anyone who is left of center.

The recent episode of The Dig with Dan Denvir features Seth Ackerman discussing just this issue and I recommend giving it a listen. The same ep also has an interview with someone from Our Revolution, which is an org more along the lines of what you're talking about, i.e. backing as many left-leaning dems as it feasibly can with the resources it has.

There's really too much to say in one post, but I think it's important to understand that DSA is organized and functions very differently from a standard liberal/left policy org or electoral org. It's not a professionalized fundraising/media model, it's a membership organization that self-organizes in a democratic way. The point of it is really to organize people, not back messages or campaigns, but contrary to what you said above many chapters DO canvass on issue-based campaigns, such as abolishing ICE, medicare for all, postal banking, etc. That organization and ability to mobilize volunteers paid off in the AOC campaign, but they really don't have the capacity to back every or even half of the left-of-center democrats running, not to mention that doing so would kind of water the org down and make it redundant to groups like Justice Democrats and Our Revolution.

Also, I would add that many members of DSA *are* also doing other things outside of DSA to support left-of-center democratic candidates, and there's a difference between arguing that people should be doing as much as we can to elect democrats and that DSA as an organization should be doing so.

I think that the Seth Ackerman article from some time ago on the subject of the viability of a socialist-powered Dem realignment is pretty good (probably elsewhere itt??), and Doug Williams's substantive critique of it here is also worth reckoning with. There are people, particularly the Our Rev milieu (many of whom are also DSAers!), doing exactly the tedious work Doug describes.

Also worth noting that there's a position that is pro-electoral while also believing that it is not possible to "take over the Democratic party"

thanks for that, good post man alive, genuinely

Folks at SocialistWorker have been posting essays on what to do about breaking with the Democrats. Of course, this is from ISO members, so they recommend getting out now.

Well I mean it couldn’t be clearer which is the true party of the worker. I look forward to GOP incumbents getting primaried by tankies

The list of 62 House members joining the Medicare for All caucus this morning pic.twitter.com/Eu1EjrWeR8

— Gideon Resnick (@GideonResnick) July 19, 2018

Marcia Fudge??

She's my rep. Glad to see her name on here.

Good name.

Anyway stoked to see Jayapal as one of the people out in front on this I’m so proud of my darn representative.

capuano's my rep!

Progressive populism can't work in the midwest...where it was born. https://t.co/AMvTbZ78Lo

— Waleed Shahid (@_waleedshahid) July 19, 2018

This is v v good:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/opinion/trump-corporations-white-working-class.html

WICHITA, Kan. — Is the white working class an angry, backward monolith — some 90 million white Americans without college degrees, all standing around in factories and fields thumping their dirty hands with baseball bats? You might think so after two years of media fixation on this version of the aggrieved laborer: male, Caucasian, conservative, racist, sexist.

This account does white supremacy a great service in several ways: It ignores workers of color, along with humane, even progressive white workers. It allows college-educated white liberals to signal superior virtue while denying the sins of their own place and class. And it conceals well-informed, formally educated white conservatives — from middle-class suburbia to the highest ranks of influence — who voted for Donald Trump in legions.

That man made of straw won’t stop signaling superior virtue and I wish he’d knock it off.

to be fair worzel gummidge does clearly possess superior virtue

such people do exist and are not straw

I confess I have often been wrong in life, but if the rumors are true that Eric Holder will run, I don't foresee that going super great.

What is Eric Holder's natural constituency?

I have no actual idea.

Overachievers

otm

https://splinternews.com/out-with-the-old-1827692070

Mark the date, I’m uncritically sharing a HamNo piece, that’s how pissed off I am this week

What is Eric Holder's natural constituency?

― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, July 19, 2018 9:53 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

biglaw partners who reliable donate to the democratic party

*reliably

Seems like Holder is spending all day every day pushing technical reforms to keep one party from gerrymandering their way out of electoral accountability, which is maybe not the most high-profile thing in the world but is actually really important

No opinion on whether he would be good at running for office

well, not all day every day. he spent most of last year working for uber (writing the big report about susan fowler etc.)

Wow. https://t.co/pModdTI6QR pic.twitter.com/HIImCh3zS5

— Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) July 20, 2018

Pelosi unloading on Trump, basically calling him traitor, during presser.

no live TV coverage.

— Eric Boehlert (@EricBoehlert) July 19, 2018

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/07/wisconsin-used-to-be-progressive-dan-kaufman-on-what-happened.html

I thought that part was interesting and otm

What do you think progressives need to do to be more successful? Is it just, in your mind, a more economically progressive message?

One thing, I think, is a long-term plan. I talk about in the book, and Jane Mayer talks about this incredibly well in Dark Money: This is a 40-year, 50-year war of attrition going back to Paul Weyrich and Lewis Powell, a galvanizing, building up of this conservative infrastructure. Conservatives are willing to accept short-term losses or piecemeal gains, but they have a very clear long-term vision. There is not equivalent infrastructure on the progressive left side at all. I don’t think there’s anything close to it. That is one thing where they are different. I honestly think sometimes Republicans are willing to lose on principle for a longer-term gain, whereas somebody like Bill Clinton was willing to triangulate and appropriate certain Republican messages that then undermined the party long-term.

Pelosi unloading on Trump, basically calling him traitor, during presser.

no live TV coverage.

definitely not entirely pelosi's fault (that chart of NYT/WashPo coverage caek posted just above is a big reason why), but this is just another reason that she needs to step down and make way for a new voice.

i would be very curious to know the breakdown of Dem/Republican quotes during a similar period during the Obama administration. maybe they're biased toward the party in power? still, O_O

maybe they're biased toward the party in power?

Josh Marshall's 2009 blog entry about DC being "wired for Republicans" remains true a decade later.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/07/wisconsin-used-to-be-progressive-dan-kaufman-on-what-happened.html

I thought that part was interesting and otm

What do you think progressives need to do to be more successful? Is it just, in your mind, a more economically progressive message?
One thing, I think, is a long-term plan. I talk about in the book, and Jane Mayer talks about this incredibly well in Dark Money: This is a 40-year, 50-year war of attrition going back to Paul Weyrich and Lewis Powell, a galvanizing, building up of this conservative infrastructure. Conservatives are willing to accept short-term losses or piecemeal gains, but they have a very clear long-term vision. There is not equivalent infrastructure on the progressive left side at all. I don’t think there’s anything close to it. That is one thing where they are different. I honestly think sometimes Republicans are willing to lose on principle for a longer-term gain, whereas somebody like Bill Clinton was willing to triangulate and appropriate certain Republican messages that then undermined the party long-term.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, July 20, 2018 10:23 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is really important. But it's also important to understand the structural differences that bring this about. They're not just more disciplined, they have a lot more money. And the big money Democrats are able to counter with (Hedge Funds, Hollywood etc.) also tends to come with major drawbacks that pull the party more in the Clinton triangulation direction that ultimately serves the long-term goals of the right. Which is why you need class politics and working class organization, because the only advantage the left can ever have over money is numbers and enthusiasm.

It’s almost like “money” is inherently conservative and “justice” and “equality” are inherently liberal

lol

solid theory as to why Lieberman botheres to weigh in on AOC:

So, a big theme in @Ocasio2018’s campaign has been her criticism of the financial industry for trying to fleece Puerto Rico. @JoeLieberman is now publicly deriding her. Left unsaid: Lieberman has represented financial firms in their Puerto Rico litigation. https://t.co/KuwIS9UAQ5 pic.twitter.com/jHH5FxPAFd

— David Sirota (@davidsirota) July 20, 2018

Al Gore sure could pick 'em

whoa, didn't even realize he was at Kasowitz

Depressing: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/21/politics/nixon-black-voter-problem/index.html

Depressing that Nixon hasn't connected with black voters?

Well, yeah, and the disappointing poll numbers. Basically everything about that story?