ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (5081 of them)

no it could mean for the next quarter, or it could be year-over-year, or month-over-month...really needs definition.

― tipsy mothra, Monday, 7 May 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

Not...that I'm aware of, altho I don't specialize in paper buying. And I don't know about the wider world of business...

― Laurel, Monday, 7 May 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

The paper was just a random example. I called this out on something last week, but they're declining to fix it -- I can't imagine what kind of thought process lies behind that, unless it's just "oh, whatever, who cares."

― nabisco, Monday, 7 May 2007 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

Or more likely "I don't know, and I'm sure as hell not tracking down the source of the statistic and figuring out the frame."

― nabisco, Monday, 7 May 2007 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

People don't care about statistics making sense. The other day I had something like "The survey found companies' paper costs had increased by an average of up to 7%" and I asked them whether it was an average or up to and they said "I don't know - that's what the press release said."

― Alba, Monday, 7 May 2007 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

Charlie, I would assume the plural is "Doberman Pinschers" or just "Dobermans." In the same sense that you wouldn't call several footrests "Ottomen." Doberman Pinschers is the 'most' correct, though.

― Will M., Monday, 7 May 2007 17:33 (nineteen years ago)

Here's a sample sentence (which I've obviously made up but which mirrors in its construction one I'm supposed to copy-edit):

"Under the guidance of Tom Ewing, ILM was founded in 2000 and ILE came on the scene in 2001."

So I've always been taught that complete subject-verb-object thoughts should be set off with commas when conjoined to other such complete thoughts. And so my instinct is to add a comma after 2000. But in this case, it seems like both events (the one in 2000 and the one in 2001) are relating back to the opening clause "under the guidance of Tom Ewing." In which case the comma might make it sound like ILM was founded under Tom's guidance, and then, later, separately, ILE came on the scene (having nothing to do with Tom).

I know that it's considered OK to omit the comma for conjoined sentences when they're super-short, like as in "He punched me and I collapsed" -- and one could make a case that the phrases here are short enough to do this, too -- but obviously sometimes they're longer, and I'm looking for a general rule, since I see this crop up quite a bit.

― jaymc, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:16 (nineteen years ago)

n which case the comma might make it sound like ILM was founded under Tom's guidance, and then, later, separately, ILE came on the scene (having nothing to do with Tom)

exactly. gramatically, that's your answer.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

You could always rewrite the sentence slightly rather than focus on just "comma or no comma," couldn't you? That's what I tend to do when following a rule might obscure the intended meaning.

― mitya, Friday, 11 May 2007 06:20 (nineteen years ago)

International style question! I know Brits say/write "different to," rather than "different from," but I can't imagine that they also say "X differs to Y in that blah blah etc." Is the UK just inconsistent on this point, saying "different to" but also "differs from?"

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:23 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=%22differs+to%22&btnG=Google+Search

^^ may provide some clues, but I dunno really

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:30 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, weird. Follow-up question: at what point did the UK start using "to" as the preposition here? I don't recall ever seeing it in any older British lit. And it kinda relies on a modern break from the etymology of words like "different" and "differ." ("To carry away from," or similar, like physical separation; and Latin, too, so yr Fowlers and such were surely not advocating "to.")

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:47 (nineteen years ago)

<i>I know Brits say/write "different to," rather than "different from"</i>

hmm: it's not that simple. we use both. i can't actually qualify that difference right now but i've got a couple of books at work that might help. i'm back in on sunday so i'll check then.

let me think ... macs are different from PCs in that ... see, i'm trying not to think about this and just write what comes naturally, and i immediately go for "from". hmmm.

<i>but I can't imagine that they also say "X differs to Y in that blah blah etc." Is the UK just inconsistent on this point, saying "different to" but also "differs from?"</i>

it's inconsistent on the first point! but yeh, i've never heard anyone say "X differs to Y". which isn't to say that people don't :)

this is going to bug me, in a good way. i don't think it's a regional thing ... leave it with me.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:50 (nineteen years ago)

oh for FUCK'S SAKE. bbFUCKINGcode.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:50 (nineteen years ago)

Despite use, "different to" is incorrect, the same way "similar from" would be.

― Oblivious Lad, Saturday, 12 May 2007 00:31 (nineteen years ago)

Further to that, "different than" is often used incorrectly here in North America, but is correct under specific circumstances (ie, "My sister and I are both different from our mother, but I am more different than my sister is.").

― Oblivious Lad, Saturday, 12 May 2007 00:36 (nineteen years ago)

"different to" is correct

― braveclub, Saturday, 12 May 2007 01:42 (nineteen years ago)

That's not a "different than": it's a shortened form of "...but I am more different from my mother than my sister is", which is itself a shortened form of "...but I am more different from my mother than my sister is different from my mother." In this kind of context there is no word that couldn't be followed by "than".

― Eyeball Kicks, Saturday, 12 May 2007 01:44 (nineteen years ago)

Further to that,

aieeeeeeee you borke my brane

― Curt1s Stephens, Saturday, 12 May 2007 03:06 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah see I think of "different to" as just wrong, and the etymology mostly backs that up, but it seems to be in regular use in Brit speech, if not really high-level Brit writing (newspapers and stuff, though!), so I ain't gonna tell y'all not to standardize howsoever you please, k thnx bai.

― nabisco, Saturday, 12 May 2007 03:08 (nineteen years ago)

Other musicians are unable to spell their names right?not just rappers.
Suzzy Roche? Rhymes with "scuzzy?"

I realize this is ages old, but yes, it actually does rhyme with "scuzzy"

― Matos W.K., Saturday, 12 May 2007 06:17 (nineteen years ago)

and just to nitpick further: it should've been Rhymes with "scuzzy"?

― Matos W.K., Saturday, 12 May 2007 06:18 (nineteen years ago)

two major major pet peeves:

1) people who spell the "definite" "definate." in a sense the misspelling works because it looks like a cross between "definite" and "defecate," which seems just about right to me. nevertheless, anyone who thinks there's an "a" in "definite" is a fool.

2) people who use the word "purposefully" when they actually mean "purposely," "on purpose," or perhaps simplest and most useful of all, "deliberately." "purposefully" DOES NOT MEAN TO DO SOMETHING ON PURPOSE. it means determined or resolute. LEARN IT, KNOW IT, STOP FUCKING DOING IT ALREADY.

― Matos W.K., Saturday, 12 May 2007 06:30 (nineteen years ago)

TESTIFY

― Tracer Hand, Sunday, 13 May 2007 02:18 (nineteen years ago)

Deafenate.

― Beth Parker, Sunday, 13 May 2007 02:49 (nineteen years ago)

"deep-seeded"

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 14 May 2007 09:27 (nineteen years ago)

"to all intensive purposes"

― underpants of the gods, Monday, 14 May 2007 10:06 (nineteen years ago)

Hello again

Line-end breaks. Talk me through them. US style = by syllable, British style = by etymology? Is that right?

I know all the stuff about not using misleading ones and splitting double consonants and compounds are quite obvious, but the basics elude me, somehow.

What about merchandise? Is it Ok to do it merch-andise?

― Jamie T Smith, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

I know all the stuff about not using misleading ones and splitting double consonants, and compounds are quite obvious, but the basics elude me, somehow.

I missed a comma!

― Jamie T Smith, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

Which would you use?:

She had been day- (and night-) dreaming.
She had been day-(and night-)dreaming.
She had been day (and night) dreaming.

I'm inclined to go with the third one.

― Eyeball Kicks, Thursday, 17 May 2007 09:27 (nineteen years ago)

may as well be the second one

― RJG, Thursday, 17 May 2007 11:22 (nineteen years ago)

Everyone dreams at night, every night. Why say it?

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 17 May 2007 11:37 (nineteen years ago)

Also: the sentence makes the two sound equivalent, but daydreams are totally different than night dreams.

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 17 May 2007 11:49 (nineteen years ago)

different from!

― ledge, Thursday, 17 May 2007 11:50 (nineteen years ago)

i.e. "She had been dreaming during the day and at night." - The question arises: Does she sleep 24 hours a day?

xpost yeah you're right! how about "they are different things to night dreams"? that's what i wrote first!

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 17 May 2007 11:51 (nineteen years ago)

"Different to" is always wrong IMHO. Ah, I haven't written IMHO for years! Golden days of web-slang they were! YMMV.

― ledge, Thursday, 17 May 2007 12:03 (nineteen years ago)

Ignore the stupidity of the sentence! I just want a vote on the correct spacing/use of hyphens! Anyway, the full sentence actually reads (no joke): "She had been day- (and night-) dreaming about Hank, her handsome flying doctor."

I'm gonna send this off in the next half hour, so unless anyone has a better idea, I'll do what RJG says.

― Eyeball Kicks, Thursday, 17 May 2007 12:12 (nineteen years ago)

Dodgy commas in that last line... sorry RJG.

― Eyeball Kicks, Thursday, 17 May 2007 12:13 (nineteen years ago)

"She had been dreaming day and night about Hank, her handsome flying doctor."

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 17 May 2007 12:26 (nineteen years ago)

Tracer's got it. IMHO.

― Madchen, Thursday, 17 May 2007 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

Re line breaks, I have no idea how the British do it. In the US, it's generally by syllable. You're right that double consonants are generally split, e.g. "bas-ket" or "lis-ten" or "hap-pen" (but not always, e.g. "chick-en" -- probably because "c" is not a strong enough letter to end a syllable). I also think that prefixes and suffixes tend to be neatly broken from their root words, e.g. "peeling" is always broken "peel-ing" rather than "pee-ling." It also seems to be inadvisable to have a syllable end with a short vowel sound, e.g., "rad-ish" rather than "ra-dish" -- although if that short vowel sound is a schwa, it's probably better the other way ("di-rect" rather than "dir-ect"). If I'm unsure, though, I just look in the dictionary, just as I did to double-check everything I just said.

― jaymc, Thursday, 17 May 2007 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

[i]Tracer's got it. IMHO.[/]

Yep. That's the one I used.

― Eyeball Kicks, Thursday, 17 May 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

Haha, obviously I shouldn't be doing this kind of work today.

― Eyeball Kicks, Thursday, 17 May 2007 16:39 (nineteen years ago)

My mother taught me that it's 'different from'. But is it 'compared with' or 'compared to'?

Also, going back to the stupid statistics thing, am I being dumb for not understanding what people mean when they say "It increased by 120%"? If something's increasing, you take the existing 100% for granted, right? So in this case the increased figure would be 220% of the first one?

― Not the real Village People, Thursday, 17 May 2007 20:25 (nineteen years ago)

Better than, different from.

Yeah, I think people get confused about the percentage thing because when you actually DO the calculation you multiply X by 1.20 to get the 20% increase...but grammatically it's only 20% more, not 120% more.

― Laurel, Thursday, 17 May 2007 20:27 (nineteen years ago)

But is it 'compared with' or 'compared to'?

"Compared with" when it's comparing different things within the same class, e.g., "Toyota sales are up 30% in 2006, compared with last year's data" or "Compared with most message boards, ILX is fucking awesome." Whereas "compared to" is used for metaphors, such as "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?"

― jaymc, Thursday, 17 May 2007 20:38 (nineteen years ago)

fuck. i genuinely forgot all about different to/from. and now i'm not in work again till monday. someone bump the thread then and remind me, and i'll check to see what i can find :)

Line-end breaks. Talk me through them. US style = by syllable, British style = by etymology? Is that right?

nooooo! what jaymc says is equally applicable to the UK (although anyone who broke chick-en over a line would feel the pointy end of my pointy boot). i'm not going to go into more detail because i can't be fucking arsed, but basically: the syllable is king.

that said: if you can keep your stem on one line, eg bugger-ing as opposed to bug-gering, it's a lot easier to parse at a glance.

It increased by 120% etc

this is actually a really interesting point that makes me wonder if a lot of people actually don't have a clue what they really mean when they use this construction. i'm gonna take a back seat and watch this one pan out.

She had been day- (and night-) dreaming about Hank, her handsome flying doctor

i know this one's done and dusted, but FUCK ME. how does someone even start to write something as bad as that? another shout for the tracer OTMery.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 17 May 2007 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

I found this when I was googling "take a decision" (spit):
http://www.bbctraining.com/styleguideArticle.asp?articleID=20

It reminded me of some idiot who did a feature in 'Student Direct' (Manc student paper) calling a bunch of people "Pre-Madonnas".

― Not the real Village People, Thursday, 17 May 2007 22:16 (nineteen years ago)

If something increases by 100% it doubles. Right?

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 17 May 2007 22:35 (nineteen years ago)

that's exactly what i've always thought. so i'd have thought that 10 increasing by 120% would be 22 (ie itself plus 20%). but my calculator disagrees, as does the google calculator.

caveat: i got a U at A/S-level maths. i hate this shit.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 17 May 2007 22:39 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 4981 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.