TBH it's pretty funny that the Belgian golden generation had to rely on fringe Premiership journeymen to bail them out.
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:12 (five years ago) link
not to beat this into the ground (too late for that eh?), but man united giving fellaini a new contract would be like the ministry of defence spunking away half their budget on siege towers and trebuchets― I'd Rather Kecak (NickB), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 07:38
― I'd Rather Kecak (NickB), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 07:38
If siege towers and trebuchets had been demonstrated to be effective in achieving difficult-to-achieve objectives in the last 24 hours, this metaphor would hold.
Football's always had tension between different playing styles, there's not a uni-directional march of history towards a shining Pepball future.
― Tim, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:12 (five years ago) link
Fellaini: c or d?
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:14 (five years ago) link
what's interesting is that there are shifts in overall trends over time and the most striking and consistent trend has been the rise of ultra defensive, deep football from lesser teams. as far as I'm aware the great sides of the 60s and 70s never had to deal with 11 players camped in their area just trying to suffocate space for the majority of the game
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:30 (five years ago) link
Well, there was catenaccio, which some of those great sides used to employ.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:34 (five years ago) link
set a naccio to cat a naccio
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:36 (five years ago) link
That was the big modern-football-is-rubbish thing of the 60s, until Celtic beat Inter Milan in the 1967 European Cup Final, opening the door for Ajax to change the direction.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:37 (five years ago) link
catenaccio seems to mean completely different things but originally it was the sweeper that was the distinctive feature right? looking through yr historical good defenses like yr 70s leeds & it's positionally p slack by modern standards. I think video has totally transformed defensive coaching, but would be v interested to see any older teams that played with deep lying dense lines like modern bus parking sides like to
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:44 (five years ago) link
ISTR that when keepers were allowed to pick up back passes the stifling method of choice was to concentrate play with a ludicrously high line and make sure you had enough speed at the back to poke the ball back to the keeper (also you could get away with kicking a speedy runner up in the air a few times before you'd even get a yellow card).
― Tim, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:49 (five years ago) link
game's gone lads
*shakes perm, drags a cigarette to the ground*
game's gone
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:51 (five years ago) link
It may be that the stifling approach (which I really don't like, fwiw) has arisen in response to the Guardiola-era version of Cruyffian total football, of course, that it's a tactical response to a form of football which is tremendously difficult to defend against and which wasn't really necessary before?
― Tim, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:53 (five years ago) link
Yes, the pass back to the keeper, brings back so many horrible memories of Celtic toiling against completely negative away sides in midweek European games.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:54 (five years ago) link
xp tim otm
pls god spain dying has broken the spell
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:55 (five years ago) link
yeah I think the better/'more footballing' teams are the ones who are playing more old fashioned football in a lot of respects, or at least football which would be more familiar to those from 50 years ago, higher up the pitch, with a sweeper (keeper) and so on. another big change is the quality of the pitches. watching old games the deceleration on passes is amazing
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:57 (five years ago) link
the wicked little witch of the far east
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 09:58 (five years ago) link
I know you all hate possession football but I don't think you can blame pep for mourinho
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:01 (five years ago) link
you can a good bit
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:02 (five years ago) link
also possession isnt the characteristic
sterility and risk-aversion is
maybe a continuum to the same thing but as the man sez u kno it when you see it
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:03 (five years ago) link
possession is absolutely the characteristic. mourinho football is much less risky, when pep teams lose they often lose big bc they're high and they're all playing out of defense and so on
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:06 (five years ago) link
which reminds me: without cheating, does anyone know/fancy guessing who said this?
“By retaining possession of the ball, you are always poised for an attack. If you haven’t got the ball, you must be on the defensive. If you retain possession, how can the other side attack and get goals? . . . I favour a pass back to the goalkeeper if in difficulties. He is always in a position to send the ball to an unmarked colleague and so keep his side on the offensive . . . There is no such thing as a defender or attacker. We are all footballers and members of a team. The aim of everyone should be to play good football and contribute something towards scoring goals.”
Yeah a lot of terrible football in the Prem and Champo has been a result of managers trying to emulate the possession aspect without having the players or wits to execute the sudden gear changes and beautiful intricacies of genuine tiki taka-esque systems
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:08 (five years ago) link
That looks vaguely familiar ogmor, looking at some of the language I might guess Busby or Ramsey?
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:09 (five years ago) link
ditto rabiot the psychic octopus :'(
― mark s, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:14 (five years ago) link
it is indeed the good spurs boy and only manager to successfully bring it home, alf ramsey
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/29/59/9f/29599f0d6880ce4fdb314fe22aa79850--ipswich-town-lions.jpg
if you liked possession football on those pitches you REALLY liked possession football
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:14 (five years ago) link
Nobby Stiles, total footballer.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:15 (five years ago) link
I have suggested before that 1966 feels like it happened at least in part because it was the only time England had a manager who was tactically on point. Venables a possible exception.
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:16 (five years ago) link
Indeed, England went from playing Tom Finney and Stanley Matthews and losing 6-3 and 7-1 to Hungary to playing Alan Ball and Nobby Stiles and winning the World Cup.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:18 (five years ago) link
v impressed you got that so quick
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:18 (five years ago) link
Hang on, Alan Ball was good!
― Michael Jones, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:23 (five years ago) link
"Colleagues" felt v Ramsey-ish and I do find him a fascinating and admirable dude
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:25 (five years ago) link
One reason for England's more encouraging than usual performance this time round is probably because the trend towards a very fast, pressing game suits this generation of English players and a lot of them have come up under either Pochettino and Klopp (or both)*. Other recent England squads would try and take a patient, possession-based approach and just end up looking ponderous and/or panicking and reverting to just hoofing it up.
*The main exception here being the United players who look visibly liberated right now.
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:26 (five years ago) link
xp damn... max kudos for that. it is a lovely and distinctive usage. I don't know much about ramsey or football history so it was perhaps more surprising to me
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:29 (five years ago) link
My dad told me how when Ramsey first introduced Alan Ball into the England side, Ball went to him after the game and complained that all Ramsey had had him do was run up and down the wing for 90 minutes, to no obvious effect. Ramsey's laconic reply was basically "well if you don't want to play, that's up to you".
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:45 (five years ago) link
bloody hell, this story:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/03/mikel-john-obi-father-kidnapped-world-cup
― I'd Rather Kecak (NickB), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 11:11 (five years ago) link
fucking hell
― . (Michael B), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 11:43 (five years ago) link
Alan Ball was always looked down on in Scotland as exactly the sort of red-in-the-face huffin' and puffin' 100% effort footballer England had been forced to rely to do trashy things like win a World Cup. The general consensus in Scotland, post-Ramsey, were that England were hod-carrying hoofers who relied on hard work and physicality to overcome the refined ball playing of 5 foot 5 Scotsmen with beer guts and 20-a-day habits.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 12:00 (five years ago) link
That was always the thing in Scotland, you're beating us but you're beating us the wrong way.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 12:02 (five years ago) link
"hod-carrying" is such a weird insult -- i for one wd respect neymar ten times as much if he neymared EXACTLY AS NOW, except always carrying a hod
― mark s, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 12:14 (five years ago) link
actual hod-carrier before he became a footballer: vinnie jones
― I'd Rather Kecak (NickB), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 12:28 (five years ago) link
from hod-carrier to spear-carrier in 3 moves
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 12:36 (five years ago) link
Had no idea Switzerland were ranked so highly. Of the teams remaining, only Brazil and Belgium are ranked higher.
Mind you, 5 of the top 10 have already gone home and Chile didn't even qualify
― groovypanda, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 13:57 (five years ago) link
lol @ that finish
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 14:07 (five years ago) link
The Zlatan - now more than ever
― . (Michael B), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 14:09 (five years ago) link
Back pass rule is *the* bug rule change of the past, what, century- the game we know did, in a sense begin in 1992, just not in the way that sky sports would have you think.
― Neuer write off the germans (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 14:16 (five years ago) link
big rule change
the bug rule change was key too tho
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 14:20 (five years ago) link
really bad lack of precision on both sides.
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 14:21 (five years ago) link
iirc Jimmy Hill said the backpass rule would be the death of the game but unsure what his rationale was beyond an innate conservative fear of change
― Pardew to Megson: "you've stolen my New Orleans bounce" (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 14:21 (five years ago) link
Sweden's crosses and through balls have been comical
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 14:25 (five years ago) link
xp Yeah, that and substitutes.
The other big change (not really in laws but in interpretation) is the criteria for yellow and red cards is much stricter, which does change things quite a lot.
― Tim, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 14:26 (five years ago) link