A New Thread fot the Current Israel/Palestine/Lebanon mess

xpost - sorry for the misunderstanding, hurting.

yes, this particular flier seems about as effective as that, esp. given that it was dropped in a predominantly christian, affluent section of beirut. y'know, the part of beirut where, for most of the civil war and occupation, israel had allies.

xpost - vad yashem isn't evil. the wailing wall isn't evil. goa fucking trance on the beach seems evil to me, tho.

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

just ignore that first entry (interesting! the roman catholics invented it, sort of). i'm not a very ends-justify-the-means person, sorry.

That's pretty much my only point here. It won't fucking work might be right for a number of reasons, but the motive isn't particularly evil.

xpost - re: environment, would you just read beirut update already you shmiel? you can read about the oil spill there.

c'mon, everyone sing the "laverne & shirley" theme!

ok now i know i need sleep.

xpost - dick you ruined my joke. and i just posted the cartoon and the blog where i found it, you guys ran with it.

No need for UN resolutions then? Such as, I dunno ... resolution 1559 demanding the disarmament of Hezbollah? Voted on by every country in the entire world?

This thread took some strange turns. Israeli soldiers have been killed in friendly fire incidents in the last few days (one involved two helicopters crashing) and I'm sure once the investigations are complete we'll discover that there were several repeated warnings to hold fire, coming from people throughout the chain of command. Conclusion: they either fucked up, or OMG IT WAS CLEARLY DELIBERATE, THE ISRAELIS ARE KILLING THEMSELVES IN ORDER TO INCREASE THEIR DEATH COUNT AND COURT WORLD SYMPATHY.

xpost dammit barry don't you start now too. you know that friendly-fire has nothing to do with BOMBING A UN OUTPOST FOR SIX FUCKING HOURS.

and neither can i, this time i'm really going (maybe).

Yes, 1559 was entirely about helping Israel (who left Lebanon five years earlier) and had nothing to do with improving life in Lebanon.

know as an american i have little to stand on when it comes to this, but i personally get a little squeamish when it comes to one country trying to dictate another country's politics to its citizens.

No need for UN resolutions then? Such as, I dunno ... resolution 1559 demanding the disarmament of Hezbollah? Voted on by every country in the entire world?

the un, last i checked, wasn't a country. if it wasn't obvious my post that you responded to was in reference to the us invasion and occupation of iraq. i have a hard time believing you were terribly in favor it, tho i'd bet that you're no fan of saddam either. tho i guess in this situation it's not really parallel since un headquarters in baghdad didn't have a direct line to the people who blew it up.

Yes, 1559 was entirely about helping Israel (who left Lebanon five years earlier) and had nothing to do with improving life in Lebanon.

this seems a little bit silly since there's not really any other force or faction in lebanon that threatens israel as far as i know aside from hezbollah. so it goes to figure that improving life in lebanon = improving life in israel. i'm not really sure why, having argued just a minute before as to the virtue of 1559, you turn back around and knock it as something that was done cynically to benefit only the lebanese, having no particular effect on israel when clearly that couldn't be the case.

Also, for every UN resolution that is beneficial to Israel you have about 100 that criticise it. I'd call that biased.

i agree but you have to distinguish between resolutions by the security council and the general assembly. let's face it: most countries don't exactly like israel, but the u.n. is ostensibly - at least on paper - a democratic organization that also happens to be headquartered in the "most powerful nation on earth"TM. if anybody pulls the strings or dictates terms, it's the united states. which means the g.a. can make all the symbolic votes it wants in regards to how "bad" israel is. and the actions by israel in the past two weeks sure ain't gonna erase that bias. they have only intensified the bias.

which was actually the thrust of the propaganda flier, no? ie syria GTFO.

its the UN's job to try to maintain a peaceful, non-partisan presence in warzone situations where there are likely to be abuses, humanitarian crises, etc.

hard to resist: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4156819.stm

Has anybody seen the news articles about Israelis hitting Red Cross ambulances transporting civilians?

as with the red cross vehicles it's possible they are so paranoid and aggressive that they think that these things are being used as cover. it's unbelievable, like the whole thing is.

And yes, it is actually true that militants (more in Gaza I think but obviously it's completely possible for Hezbollah to do this) use ambulances to transport fighters/equipment (which is against the rules of armed conflict) but to me if maybe 1 in 10 ambulances are actually Hezbollah transports, bombing all the ambulances you see still isn't right. To me the whole situation is analogous to "there is a terrorist cell in Brooklyn, so let's just blow up Brooklyn."

by capping them.

OK, I didn't realize that when you wrote "one country", you literally meant one (1) country. Many countries (=UN) attempting to steer a member country's politics is a different matter.

this seems a little bit silly since there's not really any other force or faction in lebanon that threatens israel as far as i know aside from hezbollah. so it goes to figure that improving life in lebanon = improving life in israel. i'm not really sure why, having argued just a minute before as to the virtue of 1559, you turn back around and knock it as something that was done cynically to benefit only the lebanese, having no particular effect on israel when clearly that couldn't be the case.

I wasn't being cynical! The way I recall it, there was a sudden unification of world opinion about the criminally underreported 30+ year Syrian domination of Lebanon. There was mass agreement along the lines of "why have we not been paying attention to this situation for so long?", and before you knew it, 1559 was passed and the Syrians left (sort of). The future of Lebanon was always the central issue and I don't remember Israel being much of a factor in any of the decision making, although obviously the end result was beneficial to them as well.

The disarming of Hezbollah was a forgotten subplot even at the time, which is one reason why nobody did anything about it between then and now.

yeah that's what i meant. and it's right, up a few posts, to point out that the flier points that out as well. as i said, i'm no fan of syria or iran, either. but even secular, moderate lebanese are probably now saying "better syria mess with us than israel." personally i don't see much difference, except israel ain't being subtle right now.

I wasn't being cynical! The way I recall it, there was a sudden unification of world opinion about the criminally underreported 30+ year Syrian domination of Lebanon. There was mass agreement along the lines of "why have we not been paying attention to this situation for so long?", and before you knew it, 1559 was passed and the Syrians left (sort of). The future of Lebanon was always the central issue and I don't remember Israel being much of a factor in any of the decision making, although obviously the end result was beneficial to them as well.

that's what blowing the shit out of a prime minister on a slow news week will do. man that sounds cynical of me! but it's true, in a sense. nobody, "laypeople" in the west esp., even could keep track of all the factions during the civil war, but blow up a dude in a period of relative peace/calm, and people are gonna be mad.

The disarming of Hezbollah was a forgotten subplot even at the time, which is one reason why nobody did anything about it between then and now.

absolutely, and it was a huge mistake. but i also don't think it was something that's done simply. clearly the idf is having a hell of a time right now, hezbollah is way more dug in than ever-before, and i get the impression that israeli intelligence on the ground has suffered greatly since the pullout in 2000.