Democratic (Party) Direction

<3 open borders

the koch vision of open borders is nothing like what you probably have in mind

it's based on the concept of large population indentured servitude by individual contract with is weird

the koch vision of open borders is nothing like what you probably have in mind

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Wednesday, June 20, 2018 2:32 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

true, but even a libertarian version of open borders would be the greatest humanitarian policy in history

the libertarian version of open borders looks something like the "guest worker" programs in saudi arabia and dubai and is definitely not humanitarian

some "true libertarians" literally believe in open borders, no conditions

well yeah, but those are unicorns, I'm talking about the Koch Bros

I mean there are college libertarians who believe that stuff in the abstract, but no one on the right with any power does

oh, suddenly there's "no doubt", I guess you googled it and backtracked

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), 20. juni 2018 20:17 (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You think that link backs up your claims? Lol.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/X4wtQRMju29c82CYA1VLJ6eTSQWYhuAZ7OHMfwkJYI4r0nTfiBhGZxCIyU4DdOQFcUkZnybxJKb3cQeJCJvqTVlhiQ7vI7m7HoplAJo=w800-l68

Quoting myself on the "open or national borders?" thread:

Obviously, there are some personal benefits for an individual to be able to move about in the world without restraint. But there are even greater benefits in maintaining somewhat stable social and legal institutions. In the absence of a complex and sophisticated worldwide legal framework, the complete elimination of borders would, just for a start, cripple the ability of any governmental entity to collect taxes or enforce law. We'd all be in the libertarian's idea of heaven in three shakes of a lamb's tail.

― Aimless, Sunday, June 29, 2014

Fred can you stop with your weird evasive bullshit, ever, and just make the point you are trying to make because I don't actually know what it is?

Also agree with Aimless. Even the left version of open borders doesn't work without stronger international governance bodies.

stronger international governance bodies

i'm starting to think my utopian future isn't very realistic. picard would get the Federation on the blower and make sure open planets were justly governed, but in 2017 trump had to go and break the space treaty so now its Ferengi universe.

My point is that you're stupid and wrong. The fact that Koch supports immigration reform does not mean that the Trump backlash is in any way related to a backlash against their influence. Trump was pushing birtherism long before the Gang of 8 wrote their first draft, for instance. You've got half a point, and then you're taking it in a completely stupid direction. And it seems to mostly be trying to fit left-wing soundbites into where they don't belong. Right-wing voters don't care about dark money, they aren't complaining about the Mercers promoting Breitbart and Trump.

And I'm not trying to be evasive, there's just really a limit to how much effort I'm going to spend on explaining the simplest things about your own country's recent history, while being shouted at for being a foreigner, lol.

No, you're misconstruing my point. My point is that the outsized influence of the Koch Bros has pushed Republicans to support policies that are not actually popular with the base, immigration reform being a good example. This opened up an opportunity for an upstart Republican candidate to capitalize on anti-immigrant sentiment and nativism among the base.

It has nothing to do whatsoever with whether voters like the Koch Bros or dark money, it has to do with the Koch Bros influence on the party.

couldn't citizens united have helped trump too since previously non-viable candidates could be flush with cash and think they had a chance? hence debate A and debate B and the whole clown car

left a vacuum for someone like him

I don't think so, Citizens United worsened the money-in-politics landscape but did not completely remake it

xps - So, what you are saying is that the backlash is not against the Kochs directly, but against Republicans being highly effective in fulfilling the policy agenda of billionaires, while being mostly ineffective at fulfilling the policy agenda of white supremacists?

Although I guess there is something to the idea that there were a few candidates that seemed to have "their own billionaire" but not much popular support, and I guess Citizens United did grease the runway for that the more I think about, so yeah, maybe. xp

No, you're misconstruing my point. My point is that the outsized influence of the Koch Bros has pushed Republicans to support policies that are not actually popular with the base, immigration reform being a good example. This opened up an opportunity for an upstart Republican candidate to capitalize on anti-immigrant sentiment and nativism among the base.

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), 20. juni 2018 21:05 (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

But dude, immigration reform didn't pass. Never came up for a vote in the house. If it's an example of the Kochs outsize influence, then their influence aren't that big. And Mitt Romney ran on anti-immigration sentiment as well - and lost, which is probably the bigger reason the party tried reform. And Trump pushes most of same policies the big backers want - removing benefits while giving tax cuts to the rich - and the base doesn't care. It's a bad point.

xps - So, what you are saying is that the backlash is not against the Kochs directly, but against Republicans being highly effective in fulfilling the policy agenda of billionaires, while being mostly ineffective at fulfilling the policy agenda of white supremacists?

― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, June 20, 2018 2:10 PM (forty-four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ha, well yeah to an extent. I think the interrelationship between white supremacy, nativism, populism and economics are also more complex than tends to get teased out in these threads but I'm kind of tired of that debate now. But if you have a group who feels like their standard of living and security is being eroded, and you have a party that appears pro-immigration, and then you have a demagogue come in and say "it's the immigrants taking your jobs, and these people want to let them in" you get a nice stew of racism, resentment and economic anxiety.

But dude, immigration reform didn't pass. Never came up for a vote in the house. If it's an example of the Kochs outsize influence, then their influence aren't that big. And Mitt Romney ran on anti-immigration sentiment as well - and lost, which is probably the bigger reason the party tried reform. And Trump pushes most of same policies the big backers want - removing benefits while giving tax cuts to the rich - and the base doesn't care. It's a bad point.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, June 20, 2018 2:12 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's because the Gang of 8 bill was a major turning point wherein a lot of the same strategists who went on to back Trump harnessed and stoked a huge backlash. This is not something I'm pulling out of my ass, it's been widely written about.

fwiw, if the presumed point of Koch's desire for immigration reform is to depress wages, then this is just one avenue to greatly increased profits and having a docile workforce with few rights or protections. Those primary goals are already being well served in other ways than through guest worker programs.

That's because the Gang of 8 bill was a major turning point wherein a lot of the same strategists who went on to back Trump harnessed and stoked a huge backlash. This is not something I'm pulling out of my ass, it's been widely written about.

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), 20. juni 2018 21:17 (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You might not be pulling it out of your ass, but you're still wrong. As I just said, Romney ran on being anti-immigration as well. You're portraying the Go8 as if it was the culmination of years and years of GOP pro-immigration sentiment, rather than something they tried for a year, then turned their back on.

You're idea of the 'interrelationship between white supremacy, nativism, populism and economics' doesn't seem to be that complex, really, it seems to be mostly 'the 1% did it!'.

JFC

Romney ran against a good candidate.

In any case, the Republican donor base has been more pro-immigration than the voter base for a long time.

xxpost Obama was a better candidate without question but he might have had some trouble with contextless email leaks that were curated to enrage whatever narrative/grievance against him and people who should have known better easily goaded into undercutting his campaign’s critcism of the fascist running against him w endless “what about”

oh cool let's do this again

pfft whatever, we're definitely going to figure it out this time

cmd-f racism

If I recall correctly, immigration wasn't that big a deal for Romney in 2012.

neither was honesty

snap!

He certainly wasn't out constantly stumping and demagoguing about it the way Trump did. xp

Well it is not something he ran on like the GOP are doing right now and did in 2016.

the koch vision of open borders is nothing like what you probably have in mind

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Wednesday, June 20, 2018 2:32 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the """anarchist""" libertarians i know love to loudly insist that both people and capital should flow freely across borders

it's the stupidest shit

(these anarchist libertarians, i should note, are all literally koch affiliated)

Not the right thread but I wonder how the Kochs have responded to the trade and tariffs wars and the alienation of economical allies, maybe Man Alive you have some knowledge of that?

interested to hear, because i tend to believe they would take a "creative destruction" view- the new deal and global orders must be destroyed first.

i think Bernie Sanders is on to something re the Kochs and "open borders"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdGflNp10Lk

ftr i still love open borders

IDK what the Koch bros take on the current tariff policy is but I don't think they generally like tariffs.

u rite

Koch Brothers' Groups Are Lobbying Congress to Curb President Trump's Authority on Tariffs

http://time.com/5316633/koch-brothers-donald-trump-tariffs/

Koch bros arent just GOP boogeymen they regularly contribute to NPR