South Park: Classic or Dud?

how about just blaming them for making a shitty viewpoint popular

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, June 12, 2018 2:45 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's a valid criticism.

FWIW I think the advent of reality television is the scourge of the earth and has furthered even shittier viewpoints/norms among the generation in question than SP has, but I'd still argue that it's because those people were failed before reality shows came along to normalize their own particular brand of shittiness.

if I wanted to similarly argue in bad faith I would sum up Whiney et al's position as "shows are not important and don't influence anything so joke's on you if you care about it"

which tbf is a very South Park-ian position

xp

the key element of SP is that it's not very challenging, the lead characters are stand-ins for the creators and for the audience and it's extremely libertarian in its assuredness of its own correctness and the softness and naiveté of everyone else.

There have been times where they evinced some self-crit but it's the exception.

I dunno, man, I'd just say: my worldview isn't influenced by this dumb cartoon, your worldview clearly isn't influenced by this dumb cartoon, and to the extent that others' worldviews are influenced by this dumb cartoon, it's worth considering what underlying factors are informing that difference (I'd argue that any parents letting their kids watch it are irresponsible as fuck if they aren't also providing some education in critical thinking to offset the dumb ideas).

there isn't any sole factor though as someone who worked on about 25-30 different reality TV shows i pretty much agree w/what you said above, which is one reason i quit (the other being the election tbqf.)

fuck this but old lunch otm

Think South Park warping the mind of teens might be an overplayed opinion, but for those who were always inclined to adopt its privileged libitarian politics it certainly reinforced their world view and coached them in what became the 4chan style of debate - the "u mad bro?" discourse where who cares loses. Don't think it's a simple case of changing minds, more that its general attitude is fucking everywhere now, and it is polluting debates with no end in sight.

I hate the morals at the end of the stories more than anything (the dicks / pussies / assholes speech in Team America worst of all) but they seem to have had less of an obvious influence.

no one came out to vote for wildly unpopular presidential candidate Hilary Clinton because of of that episode where cartman pooped out of his mouth

they did have a very popular episode that mocked people who cared enough to show up to the polls even though neither candidate was absolutely perfect

that episode certainly mocked the limp candidates we were given but i don't remember it mocking voters

yeah that episode also aired in October 2016. i guess they brainwashed people in the matter of a few weeks.

the idea that people are these empty vessels until they receive programming from media is absurd. it is one of the big modern myths. "if only people watched the right tv shows they would think right"... sure

keep fightin that strawman

you'll beat him one day

I'm talking about the P. Diddy "Vote or Die" one that I still hear getting quoted all the time

not saying that SP brainwashed people into being idiot libertarians but it certainly seemed to have a knack for validating shitty viewpoints

generally speaking, here's how things like South Park (or any number of other shitty cultural products like, say, Kanye records) influence the broader public discourse: 1) popular product espouses specious viewpoint, ostensibly for laffs and/or shock value, 2) other, lesser venues pick it up and run with it (internet memes, comedians, ripoffs, public figures looking to make hay out of it, commentators expressing shock/taking it seriously, etc.), 3) audience absorbs specious viewpoint as just being part of the discourse around particular issue, 4) stupider portions of audience take specious viewpoint seriously, 5) stupider portion of audience seeks out similar/related specious viewpoints, becomes even stupider.

if this all sounds craaaaaaaazy bear in mind our current President

OL is correct that there's lots of other things leading up to the endpoint in that scenario besides "shitty TV show says shitty thing" but it's all a rich tapestry, and I don't see any reason to give a free critical pass to a show that espouses shitty things. esp THIS show, who's whole reason for existence is, again, white guys getting off on consequence-free transgression.

and yet cartman being all “come at me bro” and sobbing when he’s weakly hit = still the best critique of how republicans operate in the public sphere that i’ve seen

feel like marketing and the idea of being on tv turning cartman into a heroic figure blunt a lot of the most interesting aspects of his character. it’s probably impossible to have any character on any marketed show have a more critical than heroic thrust tbh.

feel like the rise of the tv “antihero”* has also made a lot of shitty behavior by shitheads something to aspire to, even more so than in the scarface/godfather era

*lol male showrunners

But...validating how? And for whom? Is the complaint ultimately about SP's popularity? Y'all keep brushing right up against points I would agree with you on (has a knack for popularizing shitty viewpoints, yes) but not quite getting there.

At any rate, it's a show that I've enjoyed and laughed at and been pissed off at but that I ultimately won't defend too strongly because I do agree that a lot of the perspectives as presented are irresponsible/antisocial and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. But although I recognize the knee-jerk desire to demonize creative endeavors I believe to be harmful, ultimately I have to acknowledge that they only have the power to harm people with insufficient critical defenses. That those people exist in ever-greater numbers seems undeniable and is greatly alarming, but the problem of people being swayed by the dumb ideas of a dumb cartoon is a problem that exists wholly independently of SP (or the thousands of other bad idea outlets).

(Also if you just want to argue that people as a species are generally incapable of reckoning responsibly with the fruits of their creative labor, I would totally sign off on that.)

xxxpost to frogs

Also if you just want to argue that people as a species are generally incapable of reckoning responsibly with the fruits of their creative labor, I would totally sign off on that.)

We've seen every episode of South Park ever since it started airing. The only people who would be that greatly affected by a cartoon with an inability to question the characters and writing already had pre-existing issues. I think about the Kyle's dad being a well known internet troll a lot.

Gah, I feel old now remembering when the xmas short came out and thinking it was amazing.

and yet cartman being all “come at me bro” and sobbing when he’s weakly hit = still the best critique of how republicans operate in the public sphere that i’ve seen

― maura, Wednesday, June 13, 2018 12:11 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Really? If that's the best critique of republicans operating in the public sphere, then good luck usa, because you are in dire need of a proper critique of said republicans in said public sphere. SP isn't anywhere near properly criticizing republicans. It's a republican show at heart.

We've seen every episode of South Park ever since it started airing. The only people who would be that greatly affected by a cartoon with an inability to question the characters and writing already had pre-existing issues. I think about the Kyle's dad being a well known internet troll a lot.

The only people who would be that greatly affected by a cartoon with an inability to question the characters and writing

once more for the cheap seats: no one is saying this

and yet cartman being all “come at me bro” and sobbing when he’s weakly hit = still the best critique of how republicans operate in the public sphere that i’ve seen

― maura, Wednesday, June 13, 2018 12:11 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Really? If that's the best critique of republicans operating in the public sphere, then good luck usa, because you are in dire need of a proper critique of said republicans in said public sphere. SP isn't anywhere near properly criticizing republicans. It's a republican show at heart.

xpost But yeah, Old Lunch otm and yes to reality tv being way worse.

I'd probably be wise to save it for the controversial opinions thread if I were willing to expend much energy on the argument, but I feel like SP is one of the less ideologically-aligned popular enertainments out there inasmuch as it is willing to present differing viewpoints on a given topic (even if it is ultimately in the service of skewering one or all of the viewpoints presented). Like, whatever P&S's personal ideological slant may be, it's hard to argue that they're shoveling out propaganda for just their ideology.

(Unless you focus on their treatment of ecological issues, which seems to be invariably dunderheaded.)

South Park has been shoveling out alt-right propaganda for at least a decade now. C'mon man. xp

I just had to re-read this to figure out what point was really trying to be made and also now annoyed because I thought new episodes were out.

it is willing to present differing viewpoints on a given topic (even if it is ultimately in the service of skewering one or all of the viewpoints presented)

lol how is this different from when Fox News brings on a "liberal" commentator

kinda sad you've fallen for their "both sidesism" bullshit as some kind of objective presentation of opposing views, c'mon now

xp

I agree that the show's politics aren't as simple as its detractors argue, esp the later/more recent seasons, but I got tired enough of the weird/bad takes to eventually lose interest

I wouldn't describe myself as a fan of South Park - I've seen episodes and laughed (hard) at some points but I've also found a lot it gross for the sake of being gross and I find its lack of position ultimately empty. I haven't really paid attention in years.

When South Park first came out in the UK, it was around the millenium and I had just started high school. The guys - and it was predominantly boys - who were into South Park majorly were guys who were into Eminem, nu-metal, Jackass, and so on. They were all dicks, vicious bullies. They didn't understand the satire and layers of irony: they saw the cruelty and crudeness and ran with it. We had a boy at school whose surname was commonly mistaken for "Cheesy" and so spent four years being called "Cheesey Poof."

Of course South Park isn't to blame for this any more than any of the other stuff that was big with this audience was - teenage boys are little bastards, generally, and feelings of anger and entitlement are as much about adolescence as they are about personality and nature. But it was what put me off watching it for so long. Now I'm older I can see that these cultural totems like Cartman and Fred Durst didn't create the environment, they just tapped into what was there and amplified it - "there's a million others just like me, who just don't give a fuck like me" and so on. I think basically, a lot of things like this show over the past fifteen-twenty years have legitimised the rise of the alt-right, many in ways that weren't intended or anticipated.

Shakes, I won't pretend that they aren't biased but like I mentioned, the only real take I can think of them hammering home without much wavering is 'caring about the environment is dum, lol'. More often, the perspective seems to be that the people arguing any side of an argument are often at least a little wrong and stupid, which I find hard to argue with. I mean, just look at this argument, for gosh sakes.

I will acknowledge that I've probably only been able to watch the show because it doesn't influence my existing opinions one way or another. They can savage liberals 'til the cows come home and I will still proudly cry my big fat gleaming libtears afterwards.

(Also nb, I haven't watched SP in like five years so I don't even know why I'm participating so heavily rn.)

xp I mean I'm aware I'm doing a bit of reaching here and tying the show to broader trends in culture but nothing exists in a vacuum etc

Shakey and frogbs otmfm throughout this thread revive. I still retain some residual affection for the show's earlier seasons, with it having premiered when I was 14 (or almost the exact age when a prospective cishet white male would be most receptive to it) and by aiming so broadly they occasionally hit a target right on the nose even today, but on balance I think the effects of South Park's mishmash of frat-boy libertarianism and know-nothing nihilism on the broader pop cultural discourse - with the fact that it's a comedy providing just the right veneer of plausible deniability for all sorts of bullshit - have been bad ones.

tying the show to broader trends in culture

thank you and don't apologize, because this is my point. Yes Fred Durst songs and Cartman didn't create this dynamic, but the people that created them did so willfully and unapologetically, they capitalized on it and encouraged it. so fuck them.

the only real take I can think of them hammering home without much wavering

I refer you to every single depiction of an asian ever

(on SP that is)

"Prospective (cishet white male) fan," I mean (xxxp).

white guys getting off on consequence-free transgression
^this

their treatment of ecological issues
^and this

i've def snickered at SP over the years and i could prob ignore Parker & Stone's run-of-the-mill libertarian douchery, but honestly before them who with any kind of 'hip' cultural prestige else was "dunking" on climate science? it was just talk radio loons and industry planted op eds? mostly?

obviously the internet and Fox news would've happened anyway, but "South Park Conservatism" was/ is definitely a thing, and it definitely informed what has festered on 4-chan et al.

I refer you to every single depiction of an asian ever

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, June 12, 2018 5:57 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, I thought of that one immediately after posting.

I just saw the latest Johnny Knoxville movie and he looks like a walking cadaver sapped of any joy contractually obligated to re-break every bone in his already broken body and was wondering why do that to yourself and then I remembered oh yeah Matt and Trey are still making South Park

Depicting asians in a nuanced, positive light has only started happening in US pop culture in the last 42 minutes. But whatever, this has turned into a "why are white men (in the US) so entirely messed up" thread. Carry on.

The show’s racism towards asians is super aggressive, it isnt exactly Happy Days

Yeah, it's consistently ott and indefensible.

When I was in high school this show normalized people calling others “Jews”.

the baseline requirement for complete alignment with one's own POV before enjoying or appreciating satire is ..... pathetic

end of, m8s. end of.