Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

"nobody came to help me when I was on food stamps!"

id say yere awful close to solving it now folks

Some people are being left behind, not because the future is intolerant of them but because they are intolerant of this future. White men, Protestants from the dominant culture are welcome, but as Chris Evans noted, the story isn’t going to be about them all the time, and they won’t always be the ones telling it. This country has room for everybody who believes that there’s room for everybody.

this is hard to square with

I don't know when it subconsciously changed for me but I have very little interest in consuming culture from that viewpoint. In this world, and me not being a white man, it is not interesting in the slightest.

As a straight white cis American dude, I agree that pretty much all of the stories about people like me are unnecessary and played out.

(obviously if you're not interested in these stories that's fine and you're not under any any obligation to - but this reads like you're saying that their redundancy more than just subjective. and I know this is all rhetorical and actually existing culture from a white male perspective is plentiful and not about to disappear any time soon, but I think a lot 'comicsgate' and similar is more about theory and principle rather than actual situation, both among supporters and detractors?

almost namechecked you earlier, darragh

the flak you point in my direction is, to a fault, true when it comes to dealing with people one-on-one, in real life. I talk trash about people, I worry about friends without cutting them off or explaining the flaws in their beliefs, I do all that shit. talking about this stuff, the macro scale of why people adopt these attitudes... it's not always applicable to every person

but really you come off as if we're being condescending amateur social scientists and you expect we should just go "well, the lads are trash" and knock off to the pub or just not talk about this shit at all

I mean, that might not be what you're getting at, but it's how I usually take it. which, fair, you've got to draw a line somewhere

for the most part it seems like what they get defensive about is the idea that stories about white males are inherently worthless?

It's intersting to me that the counterarguments to my posts itt seem to keep countering arguments I didn't actually make. I did say that stories about straight white dudes are (to me) largely unnecessary and played out, but I did not say they were inherently worthless. If you're looking for stories for, by, and about the adventures and travails of heterosexual men of Eastern European descent, you have basically the entirety of recorded history of Western literature to pick through. There is probably no demographic which has been chronicled more thoroughly in the history of the written word. The only white dude narrative tack that would be of genuine interest to me at this point is an honest reckoning of our relationship to the non-white dude world.

xpost Yeah, a lot of this discussion went sideways. Comicsgate, I don't know. If I had had more interesting female protaganists in comics when I was younger, I probably would've been more into comics rather, than say, Nancy Drew or Lucky Santangelo. But I also think that the white male protagonist story is boring, due to it's redundancy, and likely ratio of mediocre crap/excellence.

I was watching that David Letterman netflix interview with Tina Fey this weekend and I am really glad that Nell Scovell called out his blatant "oh gee, who me?" cluelessness about why he rarely had women and I think never a poc in the writer's room in over 3 decades. Paraphrasing Tina Fey, there is certain material or jokes that are funny or worthwhile to women or poc that would never even register to a room full of white men.

There's a kind of northeastern mid-20th-century straight white male coming-of-age story I've read enough of to last me pretty much forever (John Updike, John Cheever, John Gardner, Salinger, Carver). Even the more experimental postmodern metafictionalists (Vonnegut, Gaddis, Gass, Coover, Barthelme) seem a bit tired to me now.

Yr late-20th-century doodz also seem decently well heard from (Chabon, Franzen, Wallace, Coupland, Eggers).

I'm open to the thought that somebody out there is doing something new and I should consider it, but honestly I'm pretty tired so the bar is going to be high.

latebloomer, try substitution therapy and get your friend into something obnoxious with a broad following like chapo trap house that's comparatively benign

when white guys cheerfully agree that stories about white guys are 'unnecessary' I guess I ... just don't buy it at some level? It feels disingenuous somehow, like it's a way of transmuting self-effacement into smugness. when white guys say things like 'the vast majority of my reading over the past several years has been very pointedly about exposing myself to perspectives different than my own' - if a white male reads a story it's filtered through his white male perspective just as much as when a white male writes a story, regardless of whether the protagonist is a white male or not - you literally can't get away from the white male pov! if you accept that white male stories are unnecessary and played out then that applies to both output and input? the logical endpoint of accepting these seems like accepting the worthlessness of everything you think, say and do, not just what you write?

― soref, 15. maj 2018 18:48 (fifty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Can we just take a moment to appreciate the leaps of logic in this post?

Anyways, I don't entirely agree that 'white dude stories' are played out, exactly because so many of them have been so superficial and kliché-ridden. When Old Lunch calls for 'an honest reckoning of our relationship to the non-white dude world' then I'd say: Yes! There are so many stories to be told there, that I've never seen. However, I know from discussing this with my fellow film critics, that women don't agree. I loved the new film Damsel with Robert Pattinson, thought it was a tremendously inventive and new and honest and true depiction of how white dudes see themselves in relation to women - specifically the need to see ourselves as heroes and them as damsels. The critic I discussed it with, she pointed out that it was a wannabe-feminist film that failed the Bechdel test, and that everything I thought was new about the film was something she knew from real life, and that she had no use for it. So...

It's not entirely untrue that the solution isn't just less stories from a white dude viewpoint, but also more non white dudes / less white dudes in every part of the process, from artist to critic to audience. Which is a bit of a bummer, though I guess I should be fine.

I mean, many women don't agree :) Not blanket 'women'.

Everyone is coming from a different place on the spectrum constantly trying to move that window over. Even the black community has criticisms for Dear White People, that the main character of desire in the show is a half black, light skinned woman.

the real cognitive dissonance piece here is how many of these people complaining love anime

Paraphrasing Tina Fey, there is certain material or jokes that are funny or worthwhile to women or poc that would never even register to a room full of white men.

Yes, but would it be funny or worthwhile coming from a white man? 'Cause Letterman can hire all the writers he wants, from whatever background, and he's still gonna be David Letterman. I think Seth Meyers has had the best approach to this problem on his show; he has a segment called "Jokes Seth Can't Tell," in which two women - one Jewish, one black - from his writing staff come out and deliver some fairly good jokes, and then when he tries to deliver one (at their encouragement) they mockingly jump down his throat for being offensive. They recently did one with Michelle Wolf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0MIYCLLOo0

almost namechecked you earlier, darragh

in what possible context

the flak you point in my direction is,

incorrectly imputed tbrrwu mayne

to a fault, true when it comes to dealing with people one-on-one, in real life. I talk trash about people, I worry about friends without cutting them off or explaining the flaws in their beliefs, I do all that shit. talking about this stuff, the macro scale of why people adopt these attitudes... it's not always applicable to every person

genuinely utterly lost as to what you think my attitude is towards this confession mh.

but really you come off as if we're being condescending amateur social scientists

hmmm, i should be coming off, iirc, as if youre all smelling yr own uninteresting farts for the tenth time this year on this topic without any actual insight except from a few ppl interested in the questions raised (beyond as the default opportunity to play selfloathing wite guy or dudeloathing wite girl)

and u expect we should just go "well, the lads are trash" and knock off to the pub or just not talk about this shit at all

i expect what we're getting, an actual resilt would be soref and anvil and silby and the couple of others with something to say on it thats more than flinging the emptiest of rhetorical brickbats in the safest possible place for that fraudulent realtalk from a position of profound and profoundly sought disinterest.

I mean, that might not be what you're getting at,

as stated, it isnt

but it's how I usually take it. which,

cant help that.

fair, you've got to draw a line somewhere

― mh, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 17:33 (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

u dont

so the point is "don't post so much about this shit?"

I mean, still fair, but I have no idea what you're getting at other than you think these threads are a waste of time

xpost Yeah, I brought up the Seth Meyers segment somewhere else when talking about the Letterman thing (Michelle Wolf used to be a writer there too).

Was literally just coming here to post something about how glad I am that everyone has engaged in this convo without fulfilling LJ's prediction of an impending clusterfuck, but, well.

darraghmac just give us the answers ffs

love

love, man

I've heard it from the Beatles and now you but I'm suspicious because, y'know...wite dudes.

im trying to be better at remembering that americans on the board only think about america when they think about wites tbh, i really am

what u mean is american wite ppl, tho, i think

beyond as the default opportunity to play selfloathing wite guy or dudeloathing wite girl
rude! and inaccurate/reductive

I have heard that love is all you need, however I have also heard that it is a battlefield.

american wite ppl and mostly men for sure, but there's this weird crossover in this topic space where there's the infowars dude who lives in the uk, a gamergate guy who has never left malaysia, and a bunch of people I see on twitter who feel they have to weigh in but live in ontario or something but 99% of their conversations are about how great american conservatism is

here is some ComicsGate BS, right on cue:
https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/jawbreakers-comic-comicsgate-antarctic/
― Neil S, Tuesday, May 15, 2018 2:06 PM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

My friend regularly converses with those guys on twitter :(

I’m not shocked or sad anymore, just angry at my friend for being such a goddamn idiot.

I don't really see anyone employing superficial self-loathing as a momentary white liberal hairshirt ITT FWIW.

love

love, man

― gneb farts (darraghmac), Tuesday, May 15, 2018 11:43 AM (forty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihaB8AFOhZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV8JFj17AtY

i don't really see why mh is calling out dmac btw

i think while he posts things that require people to fill in the blanks, his posts make sense

ilx seems to resent the fact that dmac says things matter-of-factly and speaks based on facts -- maybe facts that belong to a different country, sure

there is an american centrism to ilx that borders on arrogance, as if the truths arrived at from the culture/minority wars going on in the u.s. are universal truths, and that there can't be talk of poorer eastern european countries or something (was going to name a more extreme example, but i'm not trying to sound radical here), because these non-u.s. examples are exceptions and/or they undermine american exceptionalism

i just read an article on semiotics that talks about the russell conjugation, and it strikes me that most ilxors would probably agree with each other if their posts were filled in with more context

but this talk of the same related things over and over leaves no room for talks on other things happening around the world with different dynamics

thats an ok post imo but i just wanna say i dont feel mh was calling anyone out itt

1) This thread was created specifically to discuss the impact that American comics people were having upon an American friend of an American poster, so apologies if the discussion itt has been a little US-centric.
2) ILX does not resent deems. Please.

not the thread for it, you're right

but still wondering where mh is coming from then

On the plus side, the internet's unstoppable Americanization, including that of the self-flagellating variety, has led to my spending less time online. There's only so many 'lol 'Muricans' you can drop before moving on to quieter pastures. A world really does exist out there, and not all of it needs to be parsed through Trump or Jim Crow or whatever.

I was aggravated that darragh was quietly sniping instead of calling out some genuinely bad posts or commenting on the enterprise tbh

we've independently reconciled our positions and are in general agreement

and pomenitul otm, apropos of my previous post about those across the globe jumping on gamergate/comicsgate/whatever I have no idea why, outside of an imaginary american cultural hegemony, these hucksters are acting like there is One Culture to comment on

maybe because it's the most profitable, although moreso in online cachet than in dollars

outraged tbh

thought you were retiring

love is wise fellas

Some say it is a razor, though. FYI.

it is strange. many many people take it for a game.

i say love
it is a flower

If you're looking for stories for, by, and about the adventures and travails of heterosexual men of Eastern European descent, you have basically the entirety of recorded history of Western literature to pick through.

Wait, Easterm European descent?

Those literarily prolific Slavs, Poles, Hungarians and Czechs!

I mean, great literary/cultural traditions to be sure, but if we're talking hegemony here surely Western European would fit better?

i mean, there is a clear difference between "eastern european descent" and "eastern europeans"

"eastern europeans" didn't stop existing after some moved out of eastern euroope

Look, I'm geographically dyslexic, give a guy a break.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPA-vlfXUAArKX2.jpg

i had a friend who got increasingly like this during the end of the obama admin, fueled, I think, by living in a shit backward go nowhere town where he couldn't get a job. then he got married and got a job and became much less insane, and then trump got into office and I swear he's almost a liberal now. people's personal situations really do play into their weird opinions. they take their own experience as symbolic of the entirety of the world experience. they begin to mistake their opinion for fact. i mean, not always, but this happens. I don't know what to do about it. It's sad.