Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

Yeah, don't read about Fred West, it was just an example.

and I do think contemporary porn can take the mindset of some people into a dark place, especially if you're a teen without critical thinking skills. mainstream porn is now often super rough, toss-her-around-like-a-ragdoll stuff. and the fantasy/scenario of porn scenes often draws from a deeply conservative worldview, usually variations on the "alpha male/sub slut" theme.

I'm not saying those things should be forbidden and that people are "wrong" for finding it sexy, but I def think its prevalence is troubling. porn has informed the sexual acts we practice, the ways our bodies look etc, so I dont think it's crazy to think it might make some young men (and women) take on a more patriarchal mindset, since that is the ideological content of so much porn.

I hope no one here is suggesting that incels are brain-damaged or that is any kind of fruitful lens through which to view them.

Yeah, don't read about Fred West, it was just an example.

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length)

yeah too late i'm having nightmares tonight that's for sure

question: could fred and his wife whose name i've already blocked out of my mind have committed the crimes they did over the length of time they did in today's world? i don't know. it seems it would be more difficult. i also think the theory mentioned in the article that the wests stopped killing people because they were engaging in consensual torture to be a challenging one.

i don't think it's really possible to deny that giving the human race access to every possible sexual fantasy at their fingertips is going to reshape sexuality as a social construct. having said that i've been living with the internet for a quarter century and the topic is little-discussed and less-understood.

There is the whole Butterfly Effect podcast that looks at the ripple effects of the vast availability of free internet porn, so those who are interested should listen.

I hope no one here is suggesting that incels are brain-damaged or that is any kind of fruitful lens through which to view them.

I am in no way suggesting this

these "dark places" existed well before the internet, though. ever read a "men's magazine"? not like playboy, i mean the stuff with cover stories like "weasels ripped my flesh". they're vile, utterly, utterly vile.

CAAL how dare u

incels arent human weve established that

ok so as someone who

1. is a straight cis white man
2. has been single and almost completely sexually inactive for a little over a decade

I feel pretty qualified to chime in w/r/t incel culture and what might be powering it

I agree with everyone who's been saying that this notion that incels are, as a rule, "unattractive" or don't line up with societal notions of what constitutes attractiveness - at least to the degree that finding partners would be impossible or inhibitively difficult - is horseshit, is otm. There may be a layer that believe this is the case but I do not believe that it's the main driver.

I also agree with everyone who's argued that job #1 should absolutely *NOT* be for anyone - women, least of all, for the love of christ - to be charged with engaging incels to try to figure out what makes them tick or to feel more at home in society or whatever. If for no better reason that I'm not convinced it would be particularly effective.

imho, incel culture is mostly a combined byproduct of:

1. access to every possible sexual fantasy at their fingertips to quote rushomancy, more specifically, unfettered access to said content from the very beginning of sexual development, helping to reinforce very specific and harmful ideas about sexual hierarchy and expression
2. that increase in access to hyperspecific, detached-from-reality fantasies being accompanied by a decrease in perceived (and, tbh, real) future upward economic mobility
3. a lack of healthy, communal outputs to help collectively or individually process both or either stimuli
4. readily available internet echo chambers that reward the most resonant expressions of the simplest, crudest explanations for why their lives suck

not that I don't have my own work to do, but I think I was able to dodge the worst of toxic male thinking mainly due to a) being born a little too late to feel the effects of internet culture in quite the same way, b) having near-lifelong, close female friends who really helped to shape my perceptions and c) joining IRL activist orgs (lol) and learning the value of collective struggle and physical, palpable community and solidarity. I'm not arguing for the same exact strategy for everyone, only saying that until we witness significant reordering of society as a whole, this is going to continue to get worse.

Sex and mating is the ultimate game of survival of the fittest fellas

If u ain’t gettin any guess what

interesting podcast. i was ok with it until episode 5 when fucking glenn greenwald showed up. which is funny because there are were plenty of grade-a scumbags around before then.

interesting thoughts simon

regarding "2. that increase in access to hyperspecific, detached-from-reality fantasies being accompanied by a decrease in perceived (and, tbh, real) future upward economic mobility"

pornography is interesting in that it relies much more heavily on a power dynamic than sexual relationships tend to in practice. most male-targeted pornography i've run across is very much in the line of sexual power fantasies. this comes at a time when ordinary people are increasingly made to feel powerless - for women, who have been marginalized throughout the entirety of history, this is nothing new, but for men it is, and i do feel that a lot of men are struggling to come to terms with that. (also a lot of overlap between this and mental illness - depression being learned helplessness, anxiety being, often, the fear of having no control over one's environment.)

i think the bottom line here is that we're all fucked.

Every time we collectively chinstroke and pause and HMM. HMM HMM HMM over “why white men horrible” shit it feels like we’re legitimizing it and giving it priority over a thousand other way more important problems (“way more important” as in existential risks to life on earth, longstanding injustices affecting millions of people, threats to democracy, wars, that kind of thing). I know some of that is because of familiarity with the subject matter and themes, but still, aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrghdjcyfkfjdirkfcuxujyyiahzuxiv aaargh argh aaaaarrrgh.

Also “this comes at a time when” ...white men have been assholes to the rest of the world and each other for several centuries, based on one flimsy rationalization after another.

Shakezula at LGM nails it imo:

However, incels are not angry, violent misogynists because they aren’t having sex any more than their brothers the pick up artist and the men’s rights activist are misogynists because they are having sex. Neither do incels need to: get out more; make some friends; take up a new hobby, or any of the other head-patty, he’s just a confused young man solutions that sound remarkably like comments people made about gamer-gaters. Incels are angry, violent misogynists for the same reason that white nationalists are angry, violent racists: because they want to be.

i wasn't talking about incels. i'm talking about men who consume pornography and aren't incels.

Every time we collectively chinstroke and pause and HMM. HMM HMM HMM over “why white men horrible” shit it feels like we’re legitimizing it and giving it priority over a thousand other way more important problems

They're starting to murder people, including 10 just a few days ago in my city where we get on average about 65 homicides a year. It's worth analyzing, and I don't think "they suck 'cause they want to" suffices as an answer nor does it fan the flames to merely ask why it's happening.

Every time we collectively chinstroke and pause and HMM. HMM HMM HMM over “why white men horrible” shit it feels like we’re legitimizing it and giving it priority over a thousand other way more important problems (“way more important” as in existential risks to life on earth, longstanding injustices affecting millions of people, threats to democracy, wars, that kind of thing). I know some of that is because of familiarity with the subject matter and themes, but still, aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrghdjcyfkfjdirkfcuxujyyiahzuxiv aaargh argh aaaaarrrgh.

We live with them in a democratic society. From voting for far right candidates to acts of terrorism, they do have a very tangible influence on the rest of us. I mean this is a music message board so nothing concrete will come out of our discussion but the idea that we shouldn’t try, as a society, to prevent further radicalization seems dangerous to me. The impediment to progress is real, one of the obstacles is that kind of people.

i mean

that this even needs to be said in the face of repeated entries into the thread of ppl coming in to thcweam and thcweam and thcweam- tombot wtaf- that the topic even be discussed

like

its fucked, the board is just fucked, tbh

I have no idea what your position is and given the topic I don’t particularly care

Thicc weam

Tombot: did you forget that you're posting in the Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Thread? Seems reasonable that the conversation will periodically come around to some male pathology or another.

Not to mention that the topic of "why white men horrible" is inextricable from "longstanding injustices affecting millions of people, threats to democracy, wars", etc.

🍆✊🏼↔️✊🏼

Damn, I take it back, you're right: white men are blameless for all that stuff

there are a lot of endgames to pathological male psychologies and this incel bullshit is the one resulting in murder in areas people posting here actually live, let it air out

also don’t know wtf dmac’s lisping call-out was going for but willing to chalk it up to a misfired tonal shift

Its a reference to an old UK tv show character who'd shout "I'll skweam and skweam and skweam til I'm sick".

ah

mea culpa

Sex and mating is the ultimate game of survival of the fittest fellas. If u ain’t gettin any guess what

I die of sex-lack? No, that can't be right. I'm a married man and have tested that hypothesis. I'm still alive.

I have news for you. My genetic direct line is going to die out. This is a mortal lock. My only daughter will never have sex or procreate. You know what? That's so far from a practical worry that it rates about 37,665th on my list. It is a pure and absolute irrelevancy to any part of my life or thought. As it should be.

you got a wife and had a child already, you don't count anymore

why, pray tell?

incels don't usu involve married people who don't have sex, those people have their own subreddit and it's called deadbedrooms

How does having a subreddit or not have any bearing on the "survival of the fittest"?

A little compassion in all directions goes a long way.

I don't have anything to add but tombots yelling at everyone and I feel left out

f# a# i can't tell if your invocation of social darwinism was meant to be serious

if it was somebody yell at him and explain to him why social darwinism is bullshit, i'm not up to mansplaining right now

it goes hand in hand-waving with the evolutionary psychology people who never quite seem to make an actual point

Incelsplaining

Its a reference to an old UK tv show character who'd shout "I'll skweam and skweam and skweam til I'm sick".

ftr television did not start in the UK until 1936, the first book came out in 1921*, and by the time of the 1970s LWT TV adaptation with Bonnie Langford as Violet Elizabeth Bott, there had also been a radio sitcom in 1946-47, a theatre version of that which toured & was filmed for television, a radio play in the 1950s, a 1956 ITV series, two BBC series in 1962 (starring Dennis Waterman!) and 1963.

(I have seen none of these, nor the 1994-95 series, nor the 2010 one by Simon Nye. The books are very good, though, and *continued to come out until 1970, plus another posthumous compilation of 1920s and '30s material in 1990 - effectively 39 books in 49 years. take that, G.R.R. Martin, ladies to the front.) <--- on-topic

Richmal Crompton's understanding of the psychology of 10-year-old boys has IMO still not been surpassed. The only real question is; Martin Jarvis or Kenneth Williams?

holy shit I just looked it up and she also wrote another 4 childrens books and FIFTY-ONE for adults during this time.

And they are in no way formulaic like Enid Blyton or Barbara Cartland or even Agatha Christie (barring a certain amount of reused stock characters, well-meaning educationalists and various varieties of maiden aunt) - I would put her up there with Wodehouse.

this is delightful stuff imo

for anyone else attempting to follow along, I'm assuming after a little reading that sic's explaining the history of Just William adaptations without actually naming the series, and I am reasonably confident I've encountered none of the books, continuations, or adaptations in my life

thanks for the deep background lads

I was following the formula Trayce set

but don't you feel better for having done some productive work today

I do!

when are we gonna crack open a cold one and talk about football? y'all are making me uncomfortable af

btw the dude up above who suggested the possibility of sex being redistributed like wealth is an economist at george mason university, which, shockingly: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/385560-major-university-allowed-conservative-donors-say-in-hiring-and

good mourning!

lol