Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

I don't think there's very much incel/nofap crossover. Gotta keep your online neurotic male sexual frustration subcultures straight.

Pun intended, I guess.

seems like they ought to have debates with each other

I don't understand this thread anymore, but I'm confident I'll regret it if I do the research to understand it.

my take on incels: totally immature and insane assholes, but I really do think part of the issue is that they haven’t yet been liberated from a traditional model of masculinity, which prevents them from seeing women as humans

additionally there’s a big crossover with NEETs (stemming from various social economic and mental health factors) so they don’t have any life experience and understanding of how humans work and probably their full understanding of women is based on porn

a possible solution is to give these lads a life/integrate them into polite society to understand people, but understandably nobody in polite society would want anything to do with them

this TAL episode literally made me vomit, contains "no fap" information and lots of other vile stuff https://www.thisamericanlife.org/626/white-haze

if you are old enough to masturbate and don't see women as humans, retreat from society and come back when you are ready

if you are old enough to masturbate and don't see women as humans, retreat from society and come back when you are ready

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera)

they do retreat from society - to 4chan. it's not making them more ready.

i regretted writing that -- i just do not think being completely clueless is an excuse for dehumanizing half of people
the half that i am

incels and all of these people truly make me sick and i can't be rational about it. i have no sympathy.

(for them, that is -- i am generally a sympathetic person)

Sums up my own thoughts on incels and the like: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/mass-killer-toronto-attack-man-men

yeah that gary younge article is good. these guys are victims of patriarchal logic and other ppls disgust with them is part of the fuel for their spiral

the more you hate them the worse it gets

easy to say if they are not stalking, murdering, raping you
i have a right to find their behavior sickening. they can relearn how to be a person. i am not sure how much more sympathy i can find in my heart beyond that.

to be clear i do not hate anyone
hating is not something i do

i do find their beliefs and behavior sickening, as i mentioned above. i don't think i can deal with this -- i'm sorry for entering this conversation at all. i am going to excuse myself.

if MAGA persists are we gonna get a fed safety net for blue balls?

sorry if that came off harsh or personal, I recognise the self-perpetuating hate spiral that drives this and am frustrated by the awareness that disgust, however well-founded, won't make anything any better

i think this has to be addressed probably primarily by men who are able to offer some way of being/recognition outside of the suffocatingly reductive dangerous&doomed framework they've constructed for themselves

LL these people do not deserve your pity and wouldn't accept it anyway.

A lot of shitty people are lost causes, some aren't. By extending a helping hand to the latter we ensure that the former are fewer in number. Still, I sympathise with the impossibility of empathising in this one instance.

i used to live w a no fap guy, people knew bc he was really evangelist about it. think he thought it preserved his kundalini energy or something. which tbf isn't that far off from some genine spiritual practices of worldly detachment.

but this dude was not worldly detached. he drank, smoked, had sociopathic tendencies. he used to explain with glee how he loved fucked with customers at his day job cashiering at a restaurant. during the 2008 elections we were discussing politics and he was incredulous that i was critical Mitt Romney. i asked him if he was joking and he maintained that he wasn't but at that point i was pretty sure he went through the day trying to get thrills from manipulating people w the pettiest bs.

self betterment ideologies are not that detached from 70s self help or snake oil salesman of yore. if people don't have a spiritual outlet they seek out some form of self help, there will always be that market, and people on all sides ready to take advantage.

The only way back for these men is serious psychological counseling. But since mentally ill ppl who actually ask for help can’t even get it in this country, that’s not going to happen.

Yeah, I actually do think that there is a legitimate social need for some kind of supportive online community for people who are lonely and involuntarily celibate, in the way that Alana Davis originally conceived of the concept. The way that idea has been co-opted by entitled and entirely male sociopaths might be one of the most infuriating aspects of the whole contemporary incel thing. (Second to the part where they are killing people.)

i am v sceptical of the ability of any sort of talking therapy to get ppl out of really destructive negative-thinking

these fuckers need to do community service

Yeah, I actually do think that there is a legitimate social need for some kind of supportive online community for people who are lonely

yeah you can stop there? "involuntarily celibate" as a concept contains the seeds of its own problems.

I was reading some posts from women who follow some of these incel groups and she posted one from a man who followed a 14 year old girl who was walking alone so he could be important to her and to basically freak her out. He was encouraging other incels to do this type of "low level" terrorizing to other women.

the fetishizing of any attention from women isn’t a foreign thing for “male culture” but it’s taken to an extreme

that is to say, tt’s always bad, but not nearly this hostile or toxic

Oh, it was the first comment on this jezebel article. I did a bad job of summarizing. https://jezebel.com/saint-elliot-rodger-and-the-incels-who-canonize-him-1825567815

"harmless psychological fun"

christ

This tweet is part of a whole thread that's worth reading, but this gets to the core of "relating to" or "dealing with" these worthless (non)fuckers:

"So how do we discuss this phenomenon then?" Easy -- don't discuss the dehumanizing beliefs. "Bob was spouting some horrifying incel nonsense. Did you know he actually believes -- ""I don't need to know what he believes. Bob is now persona non grata. Let's go."

— N. K. Jemisin (@nkjemisin) April 28, 2018

damn if only someone had ignored that bus attacker sooner this could all have been avoided

bus? van. whatever, i'm out

Hey, you wanna be their friend, give 'em a shoulder to cry on, that's your business. Not me.

I get the impression that a big part of the appeal of the 'incel community' is that it lets these people acknowledge the basic truth (as they see it), that there is no hope for them, that no-one could ever find them desirable in any way ; in pretty much any other community or setting there is a lot of pushback against anyone who describes themselves in those terms, both from ppl trying to be 'nice', and from ppl offended by their defeatism - you can see this from all the responses over the past few days where ppl say that incels could form sexual/romantic relationships if the put in more effort, or got a better attitude etc.

I tend to think that a lot of ppl who post to incel forums are correct to believe that there is no hope for them, that they are mostly unattractive, awkward nerds (a lot of them on the autism spectrum) who inspire a vague revulsion in other ppl, and they'll never be anything other than that regardless of what they believe or how much effort they put into bettering themselves. imo it is not helpful for their critics to deny this as it means that the only ppl who will allow them to acknowledge what they know to be the truth about themselves, will acknowledge that they are not to blame for something that is largely beyond their control, are the misogynists and murder-advocates. especially as a lot of the ppl who will rebuke these guys for describing themselves as beyond hope would agree if anyone other than the incel himself described the incel as incurably undesirable.

Yeah, I actually do think that there is a legitimate social need for some kind of supportive online community for people who are lonely and involuntarily celibate

yeah. the sex positive movement is good and empowering but it can sometimes come across "look at all the sex we are having and aren't we great for it". there is such an emphasis on this being good that it can make the opposite seem bad. imo there needs to be more asexual/non-sexual awareness, something positive to ascribe to for people that either genuinely don't care or do care and can't get laid.

Try as I might to avoid this shit, it's really everywhere right now. Apologies if this bonkers commentary has already been posted.

i just. i can't. these are human beings but they live on a different planet i think pic.twitter.com/1Y0PMi2fe5

— Talia Lavin (@chick_in_kiev) April 28, 2018

I think in a lot of cases it's not exactly lack of access to sexual intercourse that these guys are angry about - if that was all it was they could hire a sex worker, or in some cases could probably eventually find a woman who would tolerate having sex with them, if unenthusiastically - but they want women not to be disgusted by them and realise that there is little to no chance of this? I think about that Cat People story and I think a lot of them realise that if they ever did find a woman willing to sleep with them it would go pretty much like that, she would be revolted and horrified and hurt by them even if she agreed to sleep with them -

obviosuly the stuff they post on forums, or actual crimes and harrassment they carry out in real life disgust women even more than just being an unattractive loser, but I think they kind of intentionally 'lean in' to horrifying women, because it's more comforting to of make it a choice that they themselves have made - when they identify as 'involuntarily celibate' they are also silently identifying themselves as 'voluntarily disgusting' and so regaining some agency, as they think (correctly imo) that they'll disgust women anyway? I don't know what you do to stop these guys hurting women though, besides trying to shut down forums where justification for misogyny and retribution against women proliferate

they are mostly unattractive, awkward nerds (a lot of them on the autism spectrum)

But a lot of people fit this description and still end up being able to find a partner.

Thing is, there is an equal amount of women and men in the world, and there's also female 'unattractive, awkward nerds'. Aaaaand there's prostitutes. There's quite honestly no such thing as being 'involuntarily celibate'.

What is the Cat People story?

the self-awareness of treating people low-level cruelty and reveling in one's own lack of empathy seems to be a relatively new socially acceptable method of going at people, as opposed to being something people do more anonymously and in a solitary way. well they still do, ultimately, but it feels different now. it's coalescing more. i see it with people i know especially red pill types, one of them being a cartoonist (whose work was actually posted on the right wing cartoon thread) who has completely flown off the rails and now explicitly states he loves being hated. it feels similar to what adam was just talking about with his ex roommate.

Cat person, a New Yorker fiction that went viral

Xp obv

xpost agree. Before that behaviour was more solitary or I guess more isolated (stalking, beating/killing women who one had some sort of relationship with). Now it's a game. You get points.

soref this is full of lazy thinking bullshit

tend to think that a lot of ppl who post to incel forums are correct to believe that there is no hope for them, that they are mostly unattractive, awkward nerds (a lot of them on the autism spectrum) who inspire a vague revulsion in other ppl

This is total garbage. I know from my basement dwelling zit popping nerrrrrrrrrds and they know how to get laid and even find happy LTRs and breed despite being "unattractive, awkward" and probably living on some point of the spectrum. The incel movement is about hating women, hating other men who get along with women, and from there it's on to hating everybody regardless. IMO this has nothing to do with what these people look like or their perceived awkwardness.

are "incels" broken? sure. lots of people are broken. lots of people are, specifically, broken in such a way that drives them to believe that they're right and everybody else is wrong. if you've found a way to fix people like that that actually works, you'd be the first.

I think they kind of intentionally 'lean in' to horrifying women, because it's more comforting to of make it a choice that they themselves have made - when they identify as 'involuntarily celibate' they are also silently identifying themselves as 'voluntarily disgusting' and so regaining some agency, as they think (correctly imo) that they'll disgust women anyway? I don't know what you do to stop these guys hurting women though, besides trying to shut down forums where justification for misogyny and retribution against women proliferate

― soref

god, everybody says, believes, does, disgusting things every once in a while. everybody hurts people they love. functional people learn, eventually, to take appropriate responsibility for that shit.

Cat person, a New Yorker fiction that went viral

This was worth reading.

Yeah, nothing about feelings of inadequacy, unattractiveness, disgust or any developmental disorders are unique to just men. But I guess if you don't consider women autonomous, complicated individuals then this doesn't really matter.

I am very glad there was so much backlash to that Walk Up and Not Out bullshit. The onus should never be on girls or victims to make sure a peer doesn't murder them.