I hadn't heard about the Couric interview until after the Pres debate. I was watching CNN and the aftershow kept going on and on about how bad it was, how it was a disaster, etc. You would have thought she fell out of her chair or started screaming or something. And then I looked it up and yes, it was shitty, but I don't think nearly as bad as the media made it out to be. I still think she's out of her league but I don't think she's a walking timebomb, and that midwestern accent is charming and that is all most Americans are going to take away from any interview with her. She's going to have to mess up much more severely to do any damage.
― Adam Bruneau, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:19 (fifteen years ago) link
and no, there will be no "draw," way to hedge your bets you guys
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:20 (fifteen years ago) link
You don't think it's that bad? I think it's horrifying. (xpost)
― Maria, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:20 (fifteen years ago) link
its weird to me that you guys are so eager to see biden unleashed when the obama debate strategy of being calm and collected paid off well in the first debate... why is this one so different?
― Barack HUSSEIN Obama (max), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:20 (fifteen years ago) link
palin will either 'win' (regardless of substance) for exceeding expectations or she will choke on her own twisted tongue and that will be that
because biden is not obama and palin is not mccain, max
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:21 (fifteen years ago) link
and i don't necessarily want to see BIDEN UNLEASHED but he has to be himself to some extent, otherwise he's on the defensive and just reacting to palin, letting her dictate the tone and direction of the discussion
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:24 (fifteen years ago) link
besides, joe biden speaking in public without throwing in a few clever digs at his opponent is like a day without sunshine, it's how he play
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:26 (fifteen years ago) link
biden already has a long reputation for saying dumb things
I think this reputation is limited to the media and folks who pay attention to people like Joe Biden, not undecided voters, who may well recognize Biden's name but not know his foot-in-mouth habits well enough to find them funny or charming. It is a totally different thing is he says something problematic during a VP debate and has chatter about his gaffe overwhelm chatter about how Palin does not entirely know what she's doing/saying. So yeah, I think Biden should worry less about "beating" her and more about prodding her to beat herself (sorry, these terms sound suddenly inappropriate) -- i.e., questioning her, engaging her, making her think on her feet and fall on her own.
Re: the Couric thing, I have anecdotal evidence of multiple people who were EXCITED about Palin and, despite not having major issues-based disagreement with anything she said in that interview, came away thinking "hold on, she just says random words while she's trying to think up an answer!" -- when this sense is palpable, it's palpable to everyone regardless of politics
― nabisco, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:27 (fifteen years ago) link
no dude, gwen ifill is dictating the tone and direction of the discussion, and biden just has to come across as smart and engaging and substantive
i get that we all want to be entertained, but for serious, chilligotthis.jpg
― Barack HUSSEIN Obama (max), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:28 (fifteen years ago) link
well, that's assuming that ifill even moderates the debate
It's not that the right's critique isn't utterly transparent, but media backlash was one of the principal dynamics in motivating the Palin bounce in the first place.But there's another factor here too. In preparing for a debate, you are often preparing nearly as much for the "judge" or moderator as for the opponent. Both campaigns probably have a pretty good idea of what types of questions she is likely to ask, how he is likely to ask them. Palin and Biden have undoubtedly watched videotapes of Ifill moderating the 2004 debate between John Edwards and Dick Cheney.By changing the moderator, you're throwing everyone a curveball, and catering to the candidate who is better able to adapt on the fly. Which, most likely, is not going to be Sarah Palin.
But there's another factor here too. In preparing for a debate, you are often preparing nearly as much for the "judge" or moderator as for the opponent. Both campaigns probably have a pretty good idea of what types of questions she is likely to ask, how he is likely to ask them. Palin and Biden have undoubtedly watched videotapes of Ifill moderating the 2004 debate between John Edwards and Dick Cheney.
By changing the moderator, you're throwing everyone a curveball, and catering to the candidate who is better able to adapt on the fly. Which, most likely, is not going to be Sarah Palin.
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:32 (fifteen years ago) link
via http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
i dunno max, you seem pretty invested in the idea that biden has to wear kid gloves for this
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:34 (fifteen years ago) link
all respect to 538, but preparing for a specific moderator seems like a dumb idea to begin with.
All for Palin to lose, either way
― Mackro Mackro, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:40 (fifteen years ago) link
or at least preparing for a moderator being the main focus, that is
― Mackro Mackro, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:41 (fifteen years ago) link
doh i just posted about this in the other election thrad
― joe 40oz (deej), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:42 (fifteen years ago) link
i'm sure they prepare for every eventuality, including the variable of 'the moderator' -- you think the campaigns leave this up to chance?
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:43 (fifteen years ago) link
You alluded to the same thing above, Elmo! I mean, the entire appeal of Palin rests in her being relatable to many folks, and when people see someone they relate to being jumped on by a career politician, whose side do you think they gravitate to? (Hence, like I said, Biden's job is to assist Palin in failing, not to jump out and MAKE her fail.)
― nabisco, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:45 (fifteen years ago) link
someone photoshop "I'll there with you" Jesus over Sarah Palin.
― Mackro Mackro, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:47 (fifteen years ago) link
i don't mean biden has to come at her swinging -- he can afford to pull his punches, only a little bit -- but if he is seen as not engaging her at all, i think it presents a worse outcome for him
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 18:50 (fifteen years ago) link
Palin's "I think I was in second grade when we heard Biden say that" comment wasn't really a smart thing to say on her behalf, to put it mildly. If any memorably punch lands on Palin, this comment by her will likely be the catalyst.
― Mackro Mackro, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:14 (fifteen years ago) link
I think Pailn will come out OKish, but given many peoples low expectations it will be a seen as a victory.
A debate is different from an interview, she's good at debates. She doesn't debate on issues but on crowd pleasing homilies. She, like Regan, isn't a facts and stats politician.
see: http://www.alternet.org/election08/101011/i%27ve_debated_sarah_palin_more_than_20_times_--_here%27s_what_it%27s_like/
Palins announcements only really get turned into a damaging 'you tube moment' jumble when under pressure, for instance the Couric newspaper questions had to get asked three times. Go back to the other flubs and you'll see it when the question has to be repeated because she gave a non-answer.
However, in a debate you can't press like that, and it looks like Biden has been especially warned not to press.
She wont mess up if not pressed.She may give bland non answers but she wont do the really damaging stuff. Unless Biden takes the risk of looking like a bully and presses hard. He needs to especially do this if Palin goes negative like her communnity organiser comments, he absolutely needs to call her out for that, no matter how she says it with a cutesy smile and a mannered 'you know'.
One difference in the debate winning tactics is that, unlike the Alaska ones mentioned in the article linked to above, these will be replayed and re-examined. This is the first You Tube election, if she flubs in a way that wouldn't have mattered much in previous years, it will be all over the net and it will be the clip of that flub we'll all be watching over and over.
― Sandy Blair, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:16 (fifteen years ago) link
"all respect to 538, but preparing for a specific moderator seems like a dumb idea to begin with."
Uh no, it's a very smart idea.
― Alex in SF, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:17 (fifteen years ago) link
"She wont mess up if not pressed."
uh what?
― playing the abortion card (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:21 (fifteen years ago) link
otm otm otm
― i am the small cat (HI DERE), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:21 (fifteen years ago) link
He shouldn't ignore her, jeez no one is saying that.
― Alex in SF, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:22 (fifteen years ago) link
i don't think Palin will let him (or anybody really) ignore her.
― The Wild Shirtless Lyrics of Mark Farner (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:23 (fifteen years ago) link
Kathleen Parker gets letters
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:27 (fifteen years ago) link
"I will not be . . . ignored . . ."
http:/✧✧✧.hostingp✧✧✧.c✧✧✧@michelletackab✧✧✧.n✧✧/blog/images/closelamp.jpg
― Oh my god pink flamingoes (Pancakes Hackman), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:28 (fifteen years ago) link
I do like this part:
"Let Sarah be Sarah" has become the latest rallying cry among my colleagues on the right. She'll be fine if we just leave her alone, they say. Between prayers, I might add.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:28 (fifteen years ago) link
Schadenfreude:
Readers have every right to reject my opinion. But when we decide that a person is a traitor and should die for having an opinion different from one's own, we cross into territory that puts all freedoms at risk. (I hear you, Dixie Chicks.)
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:31 (fifteen years ago) link
max, Shakey and Rock Hardy all said it on this thread.
― i am the small cat (HI DERE), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:35 (fifteen years ago) link
Everyone should step away from this thread, get good and hammered tomorrow night, and return.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:38 (fifteen years ago) link
hello i have been sent the best gif ever
http://i36.tinypic.com/53p6xf.gif
― Kramkoob (Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:41 (fifteen years ago) link
Sigh, okay no one who actually has the slightest say in how Biden might behave (or the faintest idea about how debate dynamics work) is saying that.
― Alex in SF, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:43 (fifteen years ago) link
JW that gif is highly offensive and is embarrassing to all americans of either party and also to me personally embarrassing due to copious and also high-volume roffles attracting unwanted coworker attention.
― rogermexico., Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:48 (fifteen years ago) link
"best" = dumb, irritating, deeply unfunny?
― nabisco, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:50 (fifteen years ago) link
rollseyes.jpg i didnt say he should ignore her, but if its important for me to be wrong, wv, rollseyes.jpg
― Barack HUSSEIN Obama (max), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:50 (fifteen years ago) link
I believe I have been "misinterpretated"
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:51 (fifteen years ago) link
guys this is a dumb argument. lol palin.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 19:52 (fifteen years ago) link
biden should wear this shirt to the debatehttp://www.bigdogs.com/images/products/family/t2839.jpg
― joe 40oz (deej), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:00 (fifteen years ago) link
this gif is basically "lol stereotypes" right
― ○◙i shine cuz i genital grind◙○ (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:03 (fifteen years ago) link
Basically.
― i am the small cat (HI DERE), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:04 (fifteen years ago) link
I think Biden should debate McCain in absentia rather than engage much with her.
This is not QUITE saying he should ignore her. I think Biden should debate McCain, his record and policies (via Mac's onstage proxy, Palin), not engage with Palin directly on what she knows or doesn't know, what she reads or doesn't read.
― Radiant Flowering Crab (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:04 (fifteen years ago) link
ok deej that is the best shirt ever
― Peter Cetera (Euler), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:06 (fifteen years ago) link
I should have blamed Alfred for the "ignore her" argument.
― i am the small cat (HI DERE), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:06 (fifteen years ago) link
i have faith in biden not flicking his tongue between his fingers at Palin.i have faith in biden not flicking his tongue between his fingers at Palin.i have faith in biden not flicking his tongue between his fingers at Palin.i have faith in biden not flicking his tongue between his fingers at Palin.i have faith in biden not flicking his tongue between his fingers at Palin.i have faith in biden not flicking his tongue between his fingers at Palin.i have faith in biden not flicking his tongue between his fingers at Palin.
― goole, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:19 (fifteen years ago) link
It's the dog that makes the shirt.
― David R., Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:20 (fifteen years ago) link
you didn't know jw finds racism funny?
― gabbneb, Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:22 (fifteen years ago) link
you wear a Phish hat
― ♪☺♫☻ (gr8080), Wednesday, 1 October 2008 20:24 (fifteen years ago) link