Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

I feel like "gossip" gets used to describe people speaking about something with nuance, without a sense of condemnation, when it's women doing it. I think of "gossip" meaning ephemeral details, maybe damning or salacious, shared for the purpose of entertainment or airing a grievance.

basically condemning how women will analyze social interaction through conversation, which -- and not in all cases! -- is a lot different in tone than dudes just complaining

It's also seen as malicious in intent and ambiguous as to whether it is true or not.

Also, can you gossip about yourself? Is that a thing?

I feel like there are underlying aspects of misogyny to it, that makes me uncomfortable when someone says "gossip is bad behavior"

fwiw the torah is basically "never talk about other ppl unless it's productive" i.e. to warn somebody of a bad business partnership or warn someone about information about who they're dating. the idea that you would chat about other ppl's lives for entertainment (prurient or really otherwise) seems anathema (tho this is not across the board - but in 2018 it's mostly the canonical take). i think of this as separate from the talking about your spouse thing which (and i know for sure i've expressed this idea on ilx before) is more about making public what should be intimate and private. again which isn't to judge yerac's relationship at all in specifics. just that in the aggregate ppl should probably err on the side of privacy when it comes to their spouses even when the teasing seems good natured. i know of couples where one person good naturedly teases/teased their spouse and the spouse smiled but you could see there was pain and friction and they were trying to be a good sport but it seemed probably not super healthy for the relationship. again nothing about yerac specifically. i'm speaking entirely in generalizations.

Also, can you gossip about yourself? Is that a thing?

again, torah perspective says no, you cannot. if productively disclosing information for whatever reason (guidance, etc) sure. but generally trash-talking yourself is also supposed to be a no-no.

nb i'm just sharing a particular milieu i'm not expecting or even hoping anyone here adopts it themselves, but it does inform my perspective.

xxxxxp otm the whole reason the word "gossip" has a pejorative sense is because over the centuries it became primarily associated with women talking to each other. The origin is from "god-sib" or god-sibling, someone extremely close to you, like family, who you share confidences with. It was value-neutral until it got attached primarily to women's conversation.

I feel like there are underlying aspects of misogyny to it, that makes me uncomfortable when someone says "gossip is bad behavior"

men gossip too. while i think there might be stereotyping about who does most of the gossiping, ime it's not really gendered in practice.

also i should clarify "gossip" is an english word w/ a particular etymology, none of the terms as I'm using them are originally in english - the terms are "lashon hara" (lit: "evil speech," aka truthful harmful speech) and "motzei shem ra" ("making a false name," aka false harmful speech).

I think you'd come up with some interesting responses if you asked a cross-section of men if they gossip!

fwiw, I would say these things to any man, pointing out their eye rolling behaviour. I have similar anecdotes about my dad, brothers, coworkers, doormen, tsa at the airport.

like the dudes I ended up having beers with after work yesterday who work in a completely different area were talking all kinds of trash about an older manager in their area who should just retire instead of trying to assert control

pretty sure at least one of them would be angry if I called it gossip

Yerac seeing your partner from this side is hilarious. NB: at least during infrequent social contact, her partner appears to be a very mild-mannered, gentle person, who comes across as a good listener and a peace-maker. Which I think is even more evidence that even dudes with positive intentions and a natural inclination to be kind, good, etc, are still steeped in a certain amount of assumption of speaking with authority.

not like women ever speak w/ assumptions of authority and especially not on ilx and especially not women posting on this thread right

yes, no women whatsoever, anywhere, ever

Mordy just discovered the inverse yet completely tone-equivalent version of "not all men"

Discovered that in orbit speaks in the very tone she condemns? Not just.

Just fp me if it makes you feel better, mordy.

I just wish you’d address these topics with the same good faith and humility you desire from others.

implicit statements in solitude don't denote authority!

in my experience women using that form get shot down as if they're assuming authority, men tend to get addressed as if it's an argument worth addressing, even if in bad faith

like we're sitting here in 2018 reasoning with sleepingbag or whoever and a single statement from a woman is beyond the pale and not worth addressing civilly

um mary beard to thread

Anyway, I consider Mordy a pal, but this "gossip" thing is a "use other words please" type issue -- and thanks for the Torah lesson and background.

men use the same tone that in orbit is using all the time, and we collectively roll our eyes, and then converse with them normally

btw that wasn't meant to equate in orbit and sleepingbag, because holy shit, that guy just throws some stinkers out there

It bothers me that gossip shouldn’t be addressed bc it’s gendered as female but mansplaining is a problem for even kind open etc men bc... all men are the same??? I feel like this place has turned into a madhouse tbph

If you want to #notallmen me whatever but that’s not the issue it’s the inconsistencies around what kind of conversations get policed in what ways and why they always seem to pan out the same way

Address gossip all you want, that's not what this is about.

but seriously, how to actually create gender equity and change behavior of those in power -- it's a long game. I watched a documentary about Eastern Europe right after WW2, which talked about how after Germany lost the war, the occupying Russian soldiers went on rape binges, and many Poles and Czechs rounded up everyone vaguely German and put them in labor camps, kicked them out of their homes, starved them, did a lot of executions, so if the level of push-back against men (and white people) we have now is the extent of it, then it seems tame in comparison.

...I think there might have been a breakdown where the word "gossip" got applied to Yerac's illustration of a personal experience to make her point? Like, saying that gossip is a word with baggage, that maybe it would be preferable to use carefully, has nothing to do with her right to tell her story or your right to say that you wouldn't choose to do so in her place.

I feel like this is so off-track I'm at a loss to bring it back to the great posts by soref, fgti, et al.

Of course those great posts were about how in an ideal world genocide might be a good answer

practically it would be the only short term solution. but uh ... pretty sure they were kidding, similarly if they had stated, what we need is a superior alien civilization to conquer the Earth and elevate women.

Just punching up.

xp

this is how we got to "gossip" and I feel like man alive was getting on to an underlying thing about how we categorize speech but it took a quick derail!

FWIW there's also a strain of old-fashioned "man-code"-ism that I've come across where guys say they don't discuss their relationships. I don't know where this originated or how far back it goes, but it seems like it's associated with it being "unmanly" to gossip.

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:19 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's not unmanly to gossip. it's bad human behavior period.

― Mordy, Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:20 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

gay men talk to each other all the time about who fuct who, etc.

are we all bad?

Mh otm that knowing what your partner would want you to discuss with others is key. I just met a woman and I respect her so much I couldn't imagine airing dirty laundry or personal details

xp - it is a way in which gay men are equated with women

you're only a real man if you banter about things and challenge norms, but any analytical touchy-feely talk is off the table. it has to have an air of judgment! and usually negative.

xpost, in orbit, yeah he's so nice that a lot of violent, aggressive male behaviours is just so out of his scope. And I think he just thinks he's being informative and helpful when he over-explains or takes over a conversation. I just think he never practiced picking up on social queues and reading the room (like a lot of men).

And yeah, I am not going to police myself just because someone labels a personal anecdote as gossip.It's not the proper term for this. If you find any story about a spouse distasteful because you hold the sanctity of marriage super special, that's your deal.

The one time I was completely silent to friends about a relationship was when it was actually incredibly dysfunctional. I don't think that plays into most relationships or is a norm, but I've been hypersensitive since then whenever someone I know well is completely silent on the subject of their marriage or long-term situation. 99% of the time it's completely normal, and it's male friends who aren't socialized to talk about it.

lol stop no one is suggesting that we "genocide" men, who have had the upper hand over women for basically like ever, everywhere. The problem is the opposite--that the work of healing from patriarchy, of undoing men's general privilege over other genders, has to happen while we live side by side before, during, and after the work. You can depose an unjust ruler, you can rebel against a regime, you can replace a hated religion with a new orthodoxy, but we can't not have men in our societies. So given this, we might need to adopt some new models for resistance and transition and maintaining ties with each other.

Right no one is suggesting it bc it’s impractical but the subtext is wouldn’t it be nice and if that doesn’t bother you

tbh if men would get their own shit figured out without dragging everyone else into it that could be better

^^^ This is how I feel a lot of the time. Tell your brothers to get their shit together without stepping on our necks.

*drinking my mug of male tears* no worries punching up why do you ppl keep getting bothered don’t you know you control society?

xxp otm!

I'm a man and I love to gossip, and don't think of it in a gendered way. But I also kinda know it's bad to talk about people in an unflattering way when they're not around, and I'm trying not to do it.

Then again, the 'lashon hara' thing that Mordy was talking about is literally the only thing from my Jewish upbringing that ever stuck with me as a possibly valuable lesson.

xxxxxp

"are we all bad?"

very bad. but when you're good you're very very good.

I think it's worth asking not to use ott language like "genocide", acting in good faith that you understand they're not being literal, and hinging argument on an assumption actual genocide was endorsed

fwiw I think Judaism emphasizes not gossiping more than other religions, is my impression. Also I guess what I was originally talking about is broader than gossip, maybe also sort of confessional talk, whining, etc. All of which could be seen as gendered female and "unmanly." But in any case I've had friends be like "I don't talk about that stuff" in re their relationships and it seemed to be some sort of stoic man code thing.

I don’t think they were literally endorsing genocide but what a high standard they only figuratively endorse it