True story: we were at a pub quiz last month and he acknowledges that I am a thousand times better at trivia than him. There was a question about what facial feature in House Hapsburg was elongated due to inbreeding. I was staring off into the distance because, I dunno, I was looking to see where the restroom was or the question was poorly worded. He started to define to me what inbreeding is and I loudly said "Are you seriously explaining what incest is to me!?!" Our team laughed.
Yeah, when I go off on a topic it usually involves alcohol. But I also know a lot about the topic and if someone corrects me or knows more than me, I stop talking and listen.
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 19:59 (six years ago) link
it can be fun to bullshit, to see how far you can push it; but i don't have an SO to complicate that.
(I only know a lot about maybe 3 things, so I keep my mouth shut unless one of them comes up)
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:00 (six years ago) link
xpost Meaning to say, if I start to soliloquiz it's usually on a topic I know a lot about and not something I am pulling out of thin air.
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:00 (six years ago) link
honestly, Yerac, I wouldn't be apologetic about those anecdotes about your husband -- I see it as indicative of what long-term intimate relationships are like. I thought it was funny and apt.
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:01 (six years ago) link
ha, the first autocomplete on Google for Habsburg is "Habsburg jaw"
― jmm, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:02 (six years ago) link
Oh, I am not apologetic. This should be a teaching moment for the dudes on this thread who find it distasteful and need to learn the difference. But thanks!
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:02 (six years ago) link
Sometimes when I go out to dinner or some other with his work colleagues (international crowd) I think about whether I should say anything when a controversial topic comes up. But then I say fuck it. I've asked before if it bothers him. But it doesn't because he usually agrees or just thinks it's funny.
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:05 (six years ago) link
I'm cool with people sharing stories about their partners or friends when it's pretty clear through context that the subject of the story would be fine with it. I feel like it's a red flag if it sounds like some old coworker harping on about his "ball and chain" or w/e but people generally have the respect to not air things out in a way their spouse would be angry at
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:05 (six years ago) link
https://goo.gl/images/ZVpTCd
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:06 (six years ago) link
my wife and i zing each other all the time in front of others bc it's good times, i've never been shaken by one of her remarks in those situations, like "how dare you speak about me in such a manner in front of the neighbors" etc.
― omar little, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:07 (six years ago) link
Bullwinkle J. Filmandbaseball
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:08 (six years ago) link
― mh, Thursday, March 8, 2018 3:05 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
FWIW there's also a strain of old-fashioned "man-code"-ism that I've come across where guys say they don't discuss their relationships. I don't know where this originated or how far back it goes, but it seems like it's associated with it being "unmanly" to gossip.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:19 (six years ago) link
it's not unmanly to gossip. it's bad human behavior period.
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:20 (six years ago) link
Well, I get that. But I consider these anecdotes to illustrate a point You don't have to defend a man you have never met. He's ok.
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:25 (six years ago) link
oh yeah i said up top that i'm not judging your particular marriage
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:25 (six years ago) link
that would be pretty dumb to judge the relationship of two people who i know nothing about and have never met
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:26 (six years ago) link
I feel like "gossip" gets used to describe people speaking about something with nuance, without a sense of condemnation, when it's women doing it. I think of "gossip" meaning ephemeral details, maybe damning or salacious, shared for the purpose of entertainment or airing a grievance.
basically condemning how women will analyze social interaction through conversation, which -- and not in all cases! -- is a lot different in tone than dudes just complaining
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:26 (six years ago) link
It's also seen as malicious in intent and ambiguous as to whether it is true or not.
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:28 (six years ago) link
Also, can you gossip about yourself? Is that a thing?
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:30 (six years ago) link
I feel like there are underlying aspects of misogyny to it, that makes me uncomfortable when someone says "gossip is bad behavior"
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:31 (six years ago) link
fwiw the torah is basically "never talk about other ppl unless it's productive" i.e. to warn somebody of a bad business partnership or warn someone about information about who they're dating. the idea that you would chat about other ppl's lives for entertainment (prurient or really otherwise) seems anathema (tho this is not across the board - but in 2018 it's mostly the canonical take). i think of this as separate from the talking about your spouse thing which (and i know for sure i've expressed this idea on ilx before) is more about making public what should be intimate and private. again which isn't to judge yerac's relationship at all in specifics. just that in the aggregate ppl should probably err on the side of privacy when it comes to their spouses even when the teasing seems good natured. i know of couples where one person good naturedly teases/teased their spouse and the spouse smiled but you could see there was pain and friction and they were trying to be a good sport but it seemed probably not super healthy for the relationship. again nothing about yerac specifically. i'm speaking entirely in generalizations.
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:31 (six years ago) link
again, torah perspective says no, you cannot. if productively disclosing information for whatever reason (guidance, etc) sure. but generally trash-talking yourself is also supposed to be a no-no.
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:32 (six years ago) link
nb i'm just sharing a particular milieu i'm not expecting or even hoping anyone here adopts it themselves, but it does inform my perspective.
xxxxxp otm the whole reason the word "gossip" has a pejorative sense is because over the centuries it became primarily associated with women talking to each other. The origin is from "god-sib" or god-sibling, someone extremely close to you, like family, who you share confidences with. It was value-neutral until it got attached primarily to women's conversation.
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:33 (six years ago) link
men gossip too. while i think there might be stereotyping about who does most of the gossiping, ime it's not really gendered in practice.
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:34 (six years ago) link
also i should clarify "gossip" is an english word w/ a particular etymology, none of the terms as I'm using them are originally in english - the terms are "lashon hara" (lit: "evil speech," aka truthful harmful speech) and "motzei shem ra" ("making a false name," aka false harmful speech).
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:35 (six years ago) link
I think you'd come up with some interesting responses if you asked a cross-section of men if they gossip!
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:35 (six years ago) link
fwiw, I would say these things to any man, pointing out their eye rolling behaviour. I have similar anecdotes about my dad, brothers, coworkers, doormen, tsa at the airport.
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:36 (six years ago) link
like the dudes I ended up having beers with after work yesterday who work in a completely different area were talking all kinds of trash about an older manager in their area who should just retire instead of trying to assert control
pretty sure at least one of them would be angry if I called it gossip
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:37 (six years ago) link
Yerac seeing your partner from this side is hilarious. NB: at least during infrequent social contact, her partner appears to be a very mild-mannered, gentle person, who comes across as a good listener and a peace-maker. Which I think is even more evidence that even dudes with positive intentions and a natural inclination to be kind, good, etc, are still steeped in a certain amount of assumption of speaking with authority.
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:38 (six years ago) link
not like women ever speak w/ assumptions of authority and especially not on ilx and especially not women posting on this thread right
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:39 (six years ago) link
yes, no women whatsoever, anywhere, ever
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:39 (six years ago) link
Mordy just discovered the inverse yet completely tone-equivalent version of "not all men"
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:40 (six years ago) link
Discovered that in orbit speaks in the very tone she condemns? Not just.
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:41 (six years ago) link
Just fp me if it makes you feel better, mordy.
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:43 (six years ago) link
I just wish you’d address these topics with the same good faith and humility you desire from others.
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:45 (six years ago) link
implicit statements in solitude don't denote authority!
in my experience women using that form get shot down as if they're assuming authority, men tend to get addressed as if it's an argument worth addressing, even if in bad faith
like we're sitting here in 2018 reasoning with sleepingbag or whoever and a single statement from a woman is beyond the pale and not worth addressing civilly
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:45 (six years ago) link
um mary beard to thread
― brimstead, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:45 (six years ago) link
Anyway, I consider Mordy a pal, but this "gossip" thing is a "use other words please" type issue -- and thanks for the Torah lesson and background.
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:46 (six years ago) link
men use the same tone that in orbit is using all the time, and we collectively roll our eyes, and then converse with them normally
btw that wasn't meant to equate in orbit and sleepingbag, because holy shit, that guy just throws some stinkers out there
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:46 (six years ago) link
It bothers me that gossip shouldn’t be addressed bc it’s gendered as female but mansplaining is a problem for even kind open etc men bc... all men are the same??? I feel like this place has turned into a madhouse tbph
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:48 (six years ago) link
If you want to #notallmen me whatever but that’s not the issue it’s the inconsistencies around what kind of conversations get policed in what ways and why they always seem to pan out the same way
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:49 (six years ago) link
Address gossip all you want, that's not what this is about.
― Yerac, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:51 (six years ago) link
but seriously, how to actually create gender equity and change behavior of those in power -- it's a long game. I watched a documentary about Eastern Europe right after WW2, which talked about how after Germany lost the war, the occupying Russian soldiers went on rape binges, and many Poles and Czechs rounded up everyone vaguely German and put them in labor camps, kicked them out of their homes, starved them, did a lot of executions, so if the level of push-back against men (and white people) we have now is the extent of it, then it seems tame in comparison.
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:53 (six years ago) link
...I think there might have been a breakdown where the word "gossip" got applied to Yerac's illustration of a personal experience to make her point? Like, saying that gossip is a word with baggage, that maybe it would be preferable to use carefully, has nothing to do with her right to tell her story or your right to say that you wouldn't choose to do so in her place.
I feel like this is so off-track I'm at a loss to bring it back to the great posts by soref, fgti, et al.
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:53 (six years ago) link
Of course those great posts were about how in an ideal world genocide might be a good answer
― Mordy, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:55 (six years ago) link
practically it would be the only short term solution. but uh ... pretty sure they were kidding, similarly if they had stated, what we need is a superior alien civilization to conquer the Earth and elevate women.
― sarahell, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:57 (six years ago) link
Just punching up.
xp
― pomenitul, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:57 (six years ago) link
this is how we got to "gossip" and I feel like man alive was getting on to an underlying thing about how we categorize speech but it took a quick derail!
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:19 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Mordy, Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:20 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― mh, Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:57 (six years ago) link
gay men talk to each other all the time about who fuct who, etc.
are we all bad?
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 8 March 2018 20:58 (six years ago) link