US Politics, February 2018: Our country was founded by geniuses, but it’s being run by idiots

xp Theyre very strange things for non americans to do fyi

They are being charged with fraud among other things

what the charges against these 13 people are, exactly (aside from the wire fraud and identity theft issues)?

Legally speaking, these are plenty. Wire fraud is serious stuff. The implicit charges have to do with motives, but motives are not indictable.

The wire fraud, bank fraud, and identity theft charges (each of which only applies to a subset of the 13 afaik) I get. It's the "conspiracy to defraud the United States" (which all 13 are being charged with) part I'm less clear on.

it's no big deal that the POTUS conspired with the PUTIN to steal the white house : )

It must be a statutory charge or how could they indict? but I have no idea about the statute behind it.

xp Theyre very strange things for non americans to do fyi

I keep rereading this, trying to work out whether it's a dig at Fred.

or me lol

xps I should have said "simple", not "easy". the answers aren't complex but getting corporatist parties to implement them is a different story.

I think it boils down to an organised attempt to dishonestly interfere with the operation of government or a government department. Xp

gualmsley I can't knock yr dedication

It must be a statutory charge or how could they indict? but I have no idea about the statute behind it.

That's what I'm asking for clarification about.
2xp or me for that matter

The wire fraud, bank fraud, and identity theft charges (each of which only applies to a subset of the 13 afaik) I get. It's the "conspiracy to defraud the United States" (which all 13 are being charged with) part I'm less clear on.

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:01 AM (thirty-five seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_against_the_United_States

motives are not indictable.

― A is for (Aimless), Friday, February 16, 2018 11:58 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/inchoate-crimes/conspiracy/

"it's the extent of the subterfuge" paul "ayn" ryan (r-wi)

Thanks for the link. So, if I'm understanding, the premise of the accusation is, essentially, that campaigning for or against a candidate under a false identity on social media is obstructing a lawful governmental function? But it wouldn't be interference or obstruction if done under one's own name?

Not a knock at anyone. Eh except Americans tbf

They criticized all candidates "except Sanders and Trump." Serious question: has Bernie Sanders ever acknowledged his online support being amplified by the Russians and said he didn't welcome it? pic.twitter.com/2oDSqjLA3M

— Baratunde (@baratunde) February 16, 2018

*runs away*

everyone knows who and what trump is

Can smell the bullshit all the way over here

lmao at that link/question

has Ruskie interference made Bernie the best liked pol, or is it what he says and how he says it

yeah it’s definitely only his message. absolutely. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

The weird thing about that tweet is that Jill Stein isn't mentioned.

because she’s not mentioned in that section of the indictment.

reading is fundamental

Does it say anywhere that they did anything to promote Sanders or just that they refrained from criticizing him?

x-post: Yes, then the weird thing is that she isn't mentioned in that section of the indictment :) Believe me, I wasn't trying to defend Bernie, he should have spoken out more forcefully back during the first DNC leaks imo.

right, it couldn't have anything to do with his full throated advocacy for incredibly popular positions xps

like not cutting a red cent from medicare, and raising the capital gains tax. OH WAIT

sorry -- talking about 2scoops, not the bern!

43. By 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used their fictitious online personas to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election. They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.

a. On or about February 10, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators internally circulated an outline of themes for future content to be posted to ORGANIZATION-controlled social media accounts. Specialists were instructed to post content that focused on “politics in the USA” and to “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump—we support them).”

b. On or about September 14, 2016, in an internal review of an ORGANIZATION- created and controlled Facebook group called “Secured Borders,” the account specialist was criticized for having a “low number of posts dedicated to criticizing Hillary Clinton” and was told “it is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton” in future posts.


...

46. ...
b. On or about November 3, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators purchased an advertisement to promote a post on the ORGANIZATION-controlled Instagram account “Blacktivist” that read in part: “Choose peace and vote for Jill Stein. Trust me, it’s not a wasted vote.”

https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download

i don’t have a pdf viewer with find on my phone

Well, decisively less weird then.

So, if I'm understanding, the premise of the accusation is, essentially, that campaigning for or against a candidate under a false identity on social media is obstructing a lawful governmental function? But it wouldn't be interference or obstruction if done under one's own name?

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:12 AM (thirty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The charge isn't "interference or obstruction," which are accomplished ends, but rather "conspiracy to defraud," which is predicated upon an agreement to seek such ends by means of deception. Here the deceit charged is the creation and use of false American identities by non-Americans acting on behalf of a foreign state.

OK, thanks, that helps. So it does come down to the misrepresentation of identity.

the stolen ssns alone...

Use of Stolen U.S. Identities
41. In or around 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators also used, possessed, and transferred, without lawful authority, the social security numbers and dates of birth of real U.S. persons without those persons’ knowledge or consent. Using these means of identification, Defendants and their co-conspirators opened accounts at PayPal, a digital payment service provider; created false means of identification, including fake driver’s licenses; and posted on ORGANIZATION-controlled social media accounts using the identities of these U.S. victims. Defendants and their co-conspirators also obtained, and attempted to obtain, false identification documents to use as proof of identity in connection with maintaining accounts and purchasing

sorry last line there is “advertisements on social media sites”

the indictment is pretty compelling. i recommend curling up by a fire and taking it all in

This just supports my notion that teaching critical thinking needs to be one of our highest priority goals. Because the Russians are frankly right: Americans are so ridiculously suggestible that they'll even believe a vote for Jill Stein isn't a waste.

yeah, but they said "trust me"...i mean, you gotta trust that

NO FRAUD NO FRAUD YOU'RE THE FRAUD MAGA TAX CUTS MAGA TAX CUTS

https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-fines-trump-taj-mahal-casino-resort-10-million-significant-and-long

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/federal-court-approves-25-million-trump-university-settlement-n845181

it's like asking a drug dealer if they're a cop, rules are rules

@old lunch amen

72. Beginning on or about August 5, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used the false U.S. persona @March_for_Trump Twitter account to recruit and later pay a real U.S. person to wear a costume portraying Clinton in a prison uniform at a rally in West Palm Beach.
73. Beginning on or about August 11, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used the false U.S. persona “Matt Skiber” Facebook account to recruit a real U.S. person to acquire signs and a costume depicting Clinton in a prison uniform.

my favorite part

58. ...

d. Defendants and their co-conspirators thereafter destroyed evidence for the purpose of impeding the investigation. On or about September 13, 2017, KAVERZINA wrote in an email to a family member: “We had a slight crisis here at work: the FBI busted our activity (not a joke). So, I got preoccupied with covering tracks together with the colleagues.” KAVERZINA further wrote, “I created all these pictures and posts, and the Americans believed that it was written by their people.”

can “the FBI busted our activity (not a joke)” be the name of the march thread

OK, thanks, that helps. So it does come down to the misrepresentation of identity.

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:33 AM (forty-one seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

While any form of fraud is predicated upon a deceit, I intentionally described these charges as predicated not simply upon the misrepresentation of personal and organizational *identity*, but also upon the misrepresentation of personal and organizational *nationality*. Whether that distinction is one of law or prosecutorial discretion I'm not sure.

xps much harder to sell people on a third way out when the Dems aren't awful. that happens to be the easier and more impactful thing to try to fix before the midterms, I would think

and yes, I'd feel the same way about this if the same tactics had been used to get, idk, rob ford or Doug ford or Conrad black elected here

y'all have a fantastic night

good handles in the bit about wire fraud. i like ihatecri✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧