US Politics, February 2018: Our country was founded by geniuses, but it’s being run by idiots

lmao

anyway I think that's exactly what the family of Anna Politkovskaya said after she was murdered, "god, Putin is such an asshole"

Sure, but not nearly as much as broad - and very understandable - disillusionment with both major parties.

Disillusionment with both major parties is one of their goals! Heard on the news today that Russian bots were pushing pro *and* con gun posts and arguments. They want to destabilize our country and encourage division. Rather than fight for a win they've decided to encourage us to lose, and they seem to be doing a pretty good job, the dicks.

love it when the accusation of Putin apologia comes out, it's a classic every time xp

You know what would make that goal much harder? Effective messaging and a winning program, which the Dems aren't providing.

an old chestnut

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-campaign-staffers-pushed-russian-propaganda-days-before-the-election

none of these people knew that russia was involved! tax cuts!!

Russia investigation should be abandoned cause Joe the Plumber doesn't give a fuck, is that your basic argument here?

trump back at 40% (via gallup) for the first time since july 2017, btw
http://news.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx

No, by all means, keep the investigation going! But don't let it monopolize your attention and energy just cause the thought of Kushner in handcuffs is fun (which it is) xp

I literally haven't seen a single leftist argue for not investigating.

oh ok I was totally wasting all my energy on that, but now I'm freed and can take down Trumpism more effectively, thanks

cool, now you're free to canvas for M4A :)

Historically speaking, how do nations tend to fare after foreign powers have meddled in their electoral processes? I wanna say 'really well' but I don't have the figures in front of me.

point to where I said meddling was good, or did you miss the part where I said the investigation was a fine thing to do

we can all walk and chew gum at the same time

firing the FBI director for investigating russian interference in the election (after you've fired the director of the National Security Agency for undisclosed contacts with the russians regarding quid pro quo for sanction lifting after "free" election advertising) is the sign of a president innocent of treason : )

"Russian influence and Republican collusion" can be used to thoroughly discredit the currently-worst cabal of oligarchic and neo-fascist politicians among the unaffiliated voters (aka independents), who are necessary to winning elections. As such, it does a fair-sized fraction of the work needed to elect less awful people and begin to advance the chances for better policies.

iow, 'Russia' may not punch our ticket to political nirvana, but it isn't peanuts, tactically speaking.

^ding ding ding

btw I love "joe the plumber" as a condescending shorthand for working people who have much more pressing, material, daily concerns than the finer points of this investigation.

"Russian influence and Republican collusion" can be used to thoroughly discredit the currently-worst cabal of oligarchic and neo-fascist politicians among the unaffiliated voters (aka independents)

there are about a million easier ways to do this lol

those same oligarchies keep health care expensive, wages plummeting, and kids getting killed. tell me those aren't more urgent problems to the average worker.

but by all means run a campaign primarily on Russia shit and see how that goes lol

oh yep you sure do seem to really be against condescension

As soon as anyone can script or at least envision a 30-second ad that meaningfully connects russian meddling to the bipartisan shitshow that makes American daily life for so many some form of hell, and *then* meaningfully sell a new vision for change that helps to chip away at disenfranchisement and disillusionment of independents, then I'll be convinced there's a winning strategy there

as soon as I see a Dem candidate making Russia the primary focus of their campaign, I won't RMDE at you

Y'all are the ones trying to make it seems like there's a meaningful connection you can sell to people!

there are about a million easier ways to do this lol

go right ahead. I hear it's really easy.

DEFENDANTS AND THEIR CO-CONSPIRATORS

thanks qualmsley

the problem with non-voters is they just haven't seen enough discredited politicians. surely that will cure voter apathy!

by all means run a campaign primarily on Russia shit

You have too little imagination.

If Mueller indicts three or four people who are among Trump's dozen closest associates, family members, and advisors, those who the public perceives as his most trusted inner circle, then no one needs to run their campaign by harping on it; the public will already be primed to reject people who have cozied up to Trump, defended him and linked arms with him politically.

That's precisely when you run your campaign primarily on issues, so when you win you've got a green light to run with what you campaigned on. It's also when you push hard for the most progressive candidates available, so maybe they can ride the 'wave' into power.

the problem with non-voters is they just haven't seen enough discredited politicians. surely that will cure voter apathy!

non-voters do not decide elections. and I've had a belly full of pinning my hopes on them and them never showing up.

"the public will already be primed to reject people who have cozied up to Trump, defended him and linked arms with him politically."

everyone knows who and what trump is.

if you're ready to give up on half yr country then Putin needs to help fucking up yr democracy

SH

everyone knows who and what trump is.

news you can use: on a day to day basis most of the public tunes this stuff out. retired people may watch FOX 8 hours a day, but I'm talking people under 55. when Donald trump Jr. is indicted, about a third of the country will mistakenly believe his dad was indicted.

so why tf would indictments change that

Simon, why so full of shit today?

I feel great!

Completely honestly, can someone help me understand what the charges against these 13 people are, exactly (aside from the wire fraud and identity theft issues)? I don't think that posting political opinions to social media (even a lot) and organizing rallies are illegal things for non-Americans to do (?). The amount of money that was spent does seem pretty large but it doesn't seem like the charges have to do with an issue of skirting campaign financing limits, afaik (?). Is the crux of the issue that they misrepresented their identities while doing these things? If so, would this also be as much of a problem if they were Americans?

if you're ready to give up on half yr country

I can't fucking well drag them to the polls. They'll have to figure out why and how to vote all on their own. Until they show themselves willing to do so, I'll figure that is the best I can expect from them.

You seem to think that changing the non-voting habits of half the country is "easy". I don't, History and experience bear me out more than they do your fond hopes. When was this happy time when 95% of Americans voted?

xp Theyre very strange things for non americans to do fyi

They are being charged with fraud among other things

what the charges against these 13 people are, exactly (aside from the wire fraud and identity theft issues)?

Legally speaking, these are plenty. Wire fraud is serious stuff. The implicit charges have to do with motives, but motives are not indictable.

The wire fraud, bank fraud, and identity theft charges (each of which only applies to a subset of the 13 afaik) I get. It's the "conspiracy to defraud the United States" (which all 13 are being charged with) part I'm less clear on.

it's no big deal that the POTUS conspired with the PUTIN to steal the white house : )

It must be a statutory charge or how could they indict? but I have no idea about the statute behind it.

xp Theyre very strange things for non americans to do fyi

I keep rereading this, trying to work out whether it's a dig at Fred.

or me lol

xps I should have said "simple", not "easy". the answers aren't complex but getting corporatist parties to implement them is a different story.

I think it boils down to an organised attempt to dishonestly interfere with the operation of government or a government department. Xp

gualmsley I can't knock yr dedication