The Good Place on NBC

I enjoyed the computer animation deconstructions of the fake world in the last episode.

idk i think sooner rather than later the show will start playing it straight. the most recent episode proved that the true core of the show is the relationships between the characters. the good place doesn't need constant twists to keep afloat.

all the interviews i've seen with michael schur seems to show that he is aware of the "too many twists" problem and that the true goings-on will be less obfuscated

At this point it's hard to picture a version of the show that's not always writing itself out of corners and reinventing itself. I love it but maybe it would benefit by not running for too many seasons?

There's no God in the show - it's a secular cartoon idea of the afterlife. Which is fine. I was just thinking about this because the only other person I know who watches it was interrogating me about what religions believe, which is the wrong approach.

I hope they keep the bad place simple - it's the kind of thing that can go very wrong with bad special effects.

was this on last week? my dvr didn't record it and I didn't see it on demand either.

all of you are having a fabulous discussion, but hey that bit with eleanor roasting tahani lol

lol

also: Jason’s favorite versions: 69...420....

I like how Eleanor gave him props for that.

i lol'd at that and felt like a child

i loled at that bcz i *am* a child :D

In defense of what I said about Chidi's inexplicable approach to teaching Eleanor--

His indecision is irrelevant. He's only shown to be indecisive between comparably reasonable options. Teaching Eleanor about moral philosophies that bear little resemblance to the one that she's going to be judged by is not reasonable at all, and a moral philosophy professor would know that.

The ideas that the afterlife might have the wrong moral standards, and that there could be value in human philosophy in any case, are also irrelevant to what I'm saying. Chidi isn't teaching Eleanor because he thinks human moral philosophy contains truths that the afterlife doesn't recognize, or because he thinks it's valuable in itself. He's trying to save her from hell. That means figuring out how Eleanor can be good by the standard of the afterlife, which Chidi himself says operates on an "infallible formula". But he goes about this in a way that makes no sense for his character.

They could have fixed most of this very easily, just by (1) having the Good Place orientation video NOT say that people are assigned on the basis of the quantifiable goodness and badness of their actions, but instead be more vague about it, and (2) having some character ask Michael or Janet to clarify how these assessments are made, and be told that this is one of the things (along with what goes on the Bad Place) that can't be revealed. That would leave Chidi to have to guess, and then it would make sense that he tries to cover his bases by teaching Eleanor about a bunch of different approaches to ethics.*

Sund4r otm. Also, in that first introduction video, Michael claims that when someone ran a red light at night, even if nobody noticed, it gave them minus points. Or something like that. The point is: The points seem more deontological in nature.

― Frederik B, Tuesday, January 16, 2018 4:36 AM (fourteen hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

A moral system where the value of every action is determined entirely by the numerical amount of goodness or badness that it contributes to the world is consequentialist, and not deontological. This is true even if the system says that breaking rules is bad.

*This still wouldn't explain why he has Eleanor learn about Hume on personal identity, nor why he would assign the entire Treatise of Human Nature.

It's not consequentialist, though, since it doesn't seem to take into account the consequences of their actions. Running a red light brings an abstract amount of good or bad into the world, no matter the circumstances. That is not consequentialism.

The orientation video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut0ai4s4mjU

Consequentialism says that the value of an action is determined by its consequences. The orientation video says that the moral value of every action is determined by the amount of good or bad that goes into the universe as a result. That seems consequentialist to me.

Deontological theories are the ones that set absolute prohibitions on performing or abstaining from certain actions, irrespective of consequences. Assigning moral point values to actions is a non-deontological move.

Yes, the value of an action should be determined by it's consequences, meaning the same action could be morally right or wrong, depending on the circumstances. That is not the case in the Good Place, meaning the system is in effect deontological.

The whole thing is of course vague, because moral philosophy is fundamentally bogus, but the system is not straightforwardly consequentialist.

you're fundamentally bogus

The video doesn't say anything about right or wrong action. It only talks about evaluating actions in terms of amounts of good and bad. It also doesn't say that any given action or type of action always carries the same value, although that would be consistent with a form of consequentialism too.

One thing the video does tells its viewers unequivocally is that deontological views of morality are all wrong.

y'all can't be sure if michael used a real good place orientation video for the neighborhood or if he made a fake one

That doesn't matter, the point is that Chidi and Eleanor believed it.

The video doesn't say anything about right or wrong action. It only talks about evaluating actions in terms of amounts of good and bad. It also doesn't say that any given action or type of action always carries the same value, although that would be consistent with a form of consequentialism too.

One thing the video does tells its viewers unequivocally is that deontological views of morality are all wrong.

― JRN, 17. januar 2018 02:54 (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It says that the woman got points for doing the same thing 1800 times, so yeah, it says it's always the same.

Tbf, Michael's example in the video = pulling into a breakdown lane when there IS traffic and thinking "no one's watching" (meaning, I think, that no police officer is watching), which is a little different from running a red light in the middle of the night when no one else is on the road. Idk how exactly it would map onto consequentialism vs deontology, though.

(although I think I have a better idea of what those words mean now)

*kills self*

It says that the woman got points for doing the same thing 1800 times, so yeah, it says it's always the same.

― Frederik B, Tuesday, January 16, 2018 8:20 PM (thirty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The video does not say that that action, or any other, has the same value every time it's done. It does show things like "Rescued pit bull(x16): 422,561" or whatever, but that doesn't mean that all 16 of those were equally good. It could just mean she did it 16 times and that was the cumulative value. But again, either way, the message of the video would still be consistent with consequentialism and inconsistent with deontology.

Where does everyone stand on the net karmic value of sandwiches?

Worth less than 0.5% of the value of:

Began to compose a social media post on the death of David Bowie and then thought, "the world doesn't need to hear my thoughts on David Bowie".

i have high hopes for their trip through the bad place! they can really go nuts.

I like this show a lot but I don't want to think about it that hard

otm, feel that way about a lot of shows tbh

CO
SIGN

can we put that on the door plz

agree! i like this show too much to read about it

feel like this show really stands out for its cheerful rigorous vibe, like the opposite of the documentaryish cringe style

yep

scumbag borderline sociopath with a heart of vaguely normal is the new likable

"i'm luggage"

this ep was so good

not so bothered with the philosophy, as long as this show brings the laughs idgaf

"Heya, pass a NASCAR ketchup."

jortles!!!

Ha! I just finished that scene.

lol'd at Pirates of the Caribbean 6, Playing EVERYWHERE FOREVER

dammit I came here just to type "jortles!!!" and was beaten to it

That was a solid ep but the Chidi stuff was a bit much, like the ethics professor has never thought about the “is it ok to lie to nazis?” moral non-dilemma?

What I got was that he had thought about it and arrived at the Kantian position that lying is never OK. Now, as with the trolley problem episode, he was faced with the actual situation in 'real life' and his commitment to the principle was being challenged.

^^^

nobody's mentioned how chidi was on high maintenace as the bug out guy?

eleanor is super fine in her 50s getup

I'm so proud of Good Janet. A quick study.

Also, I'm fucking elated anytime I get to see Maya Rudolph just *go* with a character.