how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)

And then you wink suggestively, right?

treeship yr not being very helpful with yr interjections here, maybe stop.

Maybe balancing all interests, that's the sort of world we want. One where only creeps flirt in the workplace, and hence anyone who is discomfited feels safe to immediately seek redress for their behavior. I still think its disingenuous to deny that this may have its own costs.

― Sanpaku, Monday, January 8, 2018 4:13 PM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I keep thinking about that post. Now, I am concluding that if the cost of less harm to woman is the shaming of sexual creeps unto changing their behaviour then ... sign me in for that. This is getting close to 'poor racists they are being 'marginalized' territory.

Not maybe, ~balancing all interests, this is definitively the world that we want.

Of all fucking people

what do you mean?

Hey guess what kids

If you can’t get it together enough to meet your favorite person at the pub, the club, the study group or the internet dating hub, you can just die alone! There is officially no appropriate way to say nice things to a colleague that you are attracted to.

This conversation couldn’t be more useless. I’m off. Yes silby, it’s past my fucking bedtime.

it shits me no end that this is suddenly a problem now

it’s never been ok

certain subset of guys just thought that their casual sexism is ok because it’s never been questioned. it’s never been a requirement to think about the recipient as anything more than tits in a dress, up for a laugh, etc. but NOW oh suddenly they want ~the world~ they want to be seen and heard and treated with respect and PFFFT WELL I DONT BLOODY KNOW WHATS HAPPENING

it’s really depressing to see so much handwringing over what i thought/assumed was just basic human decency.

i mean it. i get seriously gobsmacked that this is confusing.

honestly i think the 'what is socially appropriate anymore omg' is not really the issue. i mean it is to the extent that men seem to want a clear answer about how gender and sex work in everyday situations, which ironically is usually a thing that men who are cut from a certain cloth of traditional masculinity want, a clear answer about something. but like most things, gender, sex and desire are changing really fast, so the key to me seems not to bemoan the change and act entitled to a world that doesn't exist anymore but to .. observe the change and accept it. try locating desire outside of objectification for once. or be as boring as possible like everyone else. who wants to have an "interesting" conversation with a coworker anyways?

lol crut

otm

treeship yr not being very helpful with yr interjections here, maybe stop.

― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 02:44 (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Quick everyone to the fourth thread

Some people are hot.

I'm sure this was a joke, and I'm sure saying this makes me an awful snowflake juice warrior or something but the underlying idea behind this kind of thought, joke or not joke, is part of the problem. and however hardwired people want to believe libido might be doesn't cut it really, because being human beings in a society has always been about evolving and adapting our alleged innate impulses. there's literally nothing natural, and literally no reproductive imperative that trumps our desire(?)/right(?)/need(?) to create a mutually supportive species-culture that strives to operate against objectification. if we need to find new ways of being nice to one another then great, because it's pretty clear that the old ways of doing it are just another reification of people as commodities.

like, as a whole we've tried to learn that hitting other people over the head with a stick because we want their stuff is not socially productive, now maybe we can turn to other ways of cooperating with one another

our desire(?)/right(?)/need(?) to create a mutually supportive species-culture that strives to operate against objectification

I think this will break down into something different and less stark as people's thinking moves in this direction & clarifies, but I'll save it for the fifth thread

https://i.imgur.com/M23FwP7.png

an ilx where this isn't one of the first replies itt is an ilx I don't recognise

xp

I was definitely being utopian/futurist but yeah movement in a direction. and there are people always want to move in counter-directions. and at some point movements converge or crash, and you have to decide how you respond to the counter-movements.

yeah I just don't think objectification per se is the big bad, but working all that out should be juicy and productive

I think there's a form of objectification, a lot of moral and social judgement that still happens on the most superficial level that we need to learn to get over. I know that HR document upthread was from the worst place but it's an extreme form of something that lurks at the fringes of a lot of our consciousness

if there are different types of objectification & they aren't all wicked or avoidable then it's worth working out exactly where things are going wrong

I don’t think being attracted to someone, or even noting this to another colleague — i.e. “she’s really pretty” — is onjectifying. Gauche, sure, and not something I would do, but I don’t think that, in itself, is disrespectful, or diminishing that person’s value as a human, or anything else. It’s ok if we’re moving toward stricter norms of conduct to prevent, once and for all, unwanted advances, but I find it depressing to assume there is something disgusting or dehumanizing underneath the impulse to want to flirt with someone. More like, work is disgusting and dehumanizing.

Think it, don’t say it. What purpose does it serve to tell a coworker that another one is pretty?

All my posts are coming from that place. I don’t want the workplace to be a libidinous atmosphere — it probably shouldn’t be — but I also don’t want to retroactively define banal comments as creepy. I’ve had a superior say I “looked hot” before; I don’t think she even thought about whether it was appropriate. (Again, I know the dynamic is different because of gender, etc, still)

It doesn’t serve a purpose but dumb behavior is different than sexist behavior sliding toward abusiveness! Xp

People aren’t perfect, they’re idiots

I think it's about what Hazel mentioned uprhread about emotional work. Flirting may be well-intentioned and innocent, sure, but it's the flirtee that has to deal with the consequences.

(A few xposts)

t2 are you nuts? telling a colleague how "hot" a co-worker is (or whatever - "dude you notice? no ring..." ) is textbook objectifying. every time someone (always a man) has said this sort of thing to me it has been mortifying and has made me think wayyy less of that person

Again, I wouldn’t do it, but I think it’s mostly unprofessional and uncomfortable. Maybe you should get fired for it. But I think they’re mostly just vocalizing a thought that, as a though, isn’t problematic. When I am attracted to someone it’s not because I see them as an object it’s because I like them.

I would like to defend treeships right to state this as clumsily as he is doing while distancing myself from it but that is almost definitely thread 12 stuff

As usual I’m mostly interested in how things are being framed. I guess I take exception to some of the framing here which led people to react so aggressively to Sanapku’s rather banal questions.

itt a strange man asks if you saw the ass on that one

That was thread 1 tbf

Lol that seems so different. The example tom d posted was a woman pointing out a new coworker was pretty.

Pointing that out is pretty creepy. There are times it's going to be allowable depending on how well you know the other person, how lecherously you say it, a hundred things. I don't think any of those times are at work tbh.

Id note that I was against overuse of 'creepy' as a shaming device only a week ago but it is a word that applies to a lot of things quite fairly.

Why am I going to read that whole thread. Why.

Cos youre creepy

I’m going to leave this thread though because my perspective on this is not in the ilx mainstream and since I’m not even arguing that the stricter norms are “bad” there is no point. Have a good morning everyone.

🖼

an ilx where this isn't one of the first replies itt is an ilx I don't recognise

Lol that seems so different. The example tom d posted was a woman pointing out a new coworker was pretty.

No, she wasn't a coworker, that would be creepy.

I’m going to leave this thread though because my perspective on this is not in the ilx mainstream

Well it's a new thread for you innit didn't I say that

I just remember the old days when there would be clusterfucks about whether you’d rather have been a beatle or have walked on the moon (past perfect was integral to the meaning of the question)

Present perfect rather

Thered have to be a thread for each half of that q now I spose

still recall tombot's 'cows are beautiful, delicious animals' comic fondly

xp As long as you recognise that there's two different branches of discussion here - the one you're on regarding the state of the soul of the thinker, and the one the rest of us are on regarding what effect it has once it gets said.

I’m going to leave this thread though because my perspective on this is not in the ilx mainstream and since I’m not even arguing that the stricter norms are “bad” there is no point.

I've learnt a lot from this thread, personally.

I can't work out who tombot is criticising there tbh

I did go a bit banaka for a while

I don't know what tips anybody could dispense tho, I think the women who've posted have laid out some reasonably clear guidelines

People who use telepathy with their nucleus acumbens.