how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)

I'm confused about what point you're making cardamon, I'm thinking now I got the wrong end of the stick but I'm still not sure in what way

I mean I'm not making much more than a pedantic point (and making it late in the thread too). The sort of judgments we make about what good and bad workplace behaviour is, should take into account the sharp differences between, say, working as a barrister and working in burger king - 'the workplace' is not just one type of place. But temper that with some behaviours being always wrong.

I think you all look really hot today btw

it doesn't seem that, say, the acceptability of flirting will depend on the workplace so much as the individual, unless we're going to say "toughen up, this is burger king!"

Sure. And 'toughen up, this is burger king' is like the worst result we could get here.

I would say re: flirting that in call-centres, my experience is that the youngsters will: clock off, go on their break, head to break room or smoking area and engage in extremely crude ritual (that it's a ritual is key) flirting banter. Tits and dicks and shagging. Booming laughter. This is not always very nice to overhear. Some of what gets said is pretty concerning. Had anyone come out with it at one of my more 'professional' jobs I might even have complained ... It's just that also there's this dose of human warmth/relief mixed in there as well - to a large extent it feels justified by the crudity and aggression of the customers (who blast themselves into your ear one after another) and as a relief from the awfulness of the job in general.

So there's a tentative feeling that some things might more or less 'go' in some workplaces, and more or less not 'go' in others - but not to the extent of hand-waving toxic bad behaviour or bullying or harassment in a job just because a job is shit

Again, as well as that kind of flirting banter or whatever we want to call it being ritualised (and so having less implication that this person is actually intending to have sex with this other person) it's also a joke that everybody's in on, taking us back to the idea that it's largely to do with individuals and what those individuals are comfortable with

cardamon i relate to the work experience you mentioned in xp

last job i worked mostly with males and there was high turn over. We rarely hired women because some of the guys were such pigs that they openly admitted it would be problematic if women heard the dirty banter that was going on. Any woman that was hired was deemed to have been okay to handle that type of shit, which was truly awful. as cardamon says my colleagues felt like their bad behavior was justified by the stress of dealing with asshole clients.

i tried to stay away from it mostly, iirc one guy jokingly called me a feminist

When you're young, it's all about keeping up with the guy with the biggest mouth, whether you agree with him or not. It's only when you're older that you start to realise ignoring him and staying the hell away was an option all along.

Although in the example I'm thinking of these are young women as well as young men - but indeed there is the question (that I can't answer because not a woman) how really okay the women are with it

Thankyou, f.hazel for highlighting the role of emotional labor in all this. Yes yes yes. Why do we always have to do all the work here?

Also sanpaku why did you post that graph about less adults marrying? What the feck has that to do with workplace appropriate behaviours?

If this current public attention to acceptable and unacceptable behavior results in a clearer framework, then good. If it just makes social connection more vexing, we'll learn about it from the tallies of solitary never marrieds, birthrates, and suicides.

― Sanpaku, Sunday, 7 January 2018 00:40 (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Righto. Though he posted the graph after saying "Maybe balancing all interests, that's the sort of world we want. One where only creeps flirt in the workplace, and hence anyone who is discomfited feels safe to immediately seek redress for their behavior. I still think its disingenuous to deny that this may have its own costs."

It felt vaguely MGTOW and that shit I will not stand for.

not disagreeing

also agree per f hazel's post that in sanpaku's desire for a "framework" there is a bit of "somebody needs to sort this out *taps large pile of toxic paperwork on desk with forefinger* - sensitive souls? i'm looking at you here"

lol so men will "go their own way" (i looked it up) and society will cease to flourish? is this a joke?

yeah idg that logic at all O_o

Haha sadly no.

We have to bargain with our humanity ladies. Do we want to be respected in the workplace or do we want civilization to end?

i find myself wondering who would care if a portion of toxic men unwilling to stop imposing their will on others floated away on a river of tears to the childless island of their choice
if this is the terrifying new math, i'm willing to risk it. bye felicias! (pardon my glibness)

i don't wish suicide on anyone but saying that men will commit suicide before they stop workplace harassment is utterly absurd

It's petulant knee jerk reactionism to having societal restrictions. Men should be ashamed of their past behaviors. I'm ashamed of the times I didn't say anything or went along with it to my own detriment.

This conversation has gotten so weird.

This conversation has gotten really good.

http://screenprism.com/assets/img/article/The_Conversation-saxophone.jpg

I'm cool with civilization ending.

Same. This thread not helping to persuade me otherwise.

you were trying to get your work done because you come to work to make money and the asshole men could not plant their seeds in you and committed suicide. sounds ok.

Yeah, I mean women have no responsibility to coddle men in the workplace so that they don't commit suicide. That is not in any HR manual.

What

I thought this was about telling a coworker their necklace was groovy but it spiralled into this extremely dark place.

Obviously women aren’t obliged to reciprocate flirting and dudes should take a hint. But they should live and learn. Not kill themselves.

Interesting thing happened today at work, there was a really beautiful young woman there today, and a woman I was working with said - and I absolutely knew she was going to say this - "She's very pretty" and I thought, "Errrrrrr, what do I say?" So, I said, trying to pretend I hadn't really noticed, "What? Yeah, she is".

Say, “ok”

Some people are hot.

True, but it's a minefield out there.

You think it was a trap?

good looking ppl are crisis actors

(xp) No, not at all.

my stock reaction to pretty much anything my coworkers tell me is "oh, hey, well, you know..." *trails off*

And then you wink suggestively, right?

treeship yr not being very helpful with yr interjections here, maybe stop.

Maybe balancing all interests, that's the sort of world we want. One where only creeps flirt in the workplace, and hence anyone who is discomfited feels safe to immediately seek redress for their behavior. I still think its disingenuous to deny that this may have its own costs.

― Sanpaku, Monday, January 8, 2018 4:13 PM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I keep thinking about that post. Now, I am concluding that if the cost of less harm to woman is the shaming of sexual creeps unto changing their behaviour then ... sign me in for that. This is getting close to 'poor racists they are being 'marginalized' territory.

Not maybe, ~balancing all interests, this is definitively the world that we want.

Of all fucking people

what do you mean?

Hey guess what kids

If you can’t get it together enough to meet your favorite person at the pub, the club, the study group or the internet dating hub, you can just die alone! There is officially no appropriate way to say nice things to a colleague that you are attracted to.

This conversation couldn’t be more useless. I’m off. Yes silby, it’s past my fucking bedtime.

it shits me no end that this is suddenly a problem now

it’s never been ok

certain subset of guys just thought that their casual sexism is ok because it’s never been questioned. it’s never been a requirement to think about the recipient as anything more than tits in a dress, up for a laugh, etc. but NOW oh suddenly they want ~the world~ they want to be seen and heard and treated with respect and PFFFT WELL I DONT BLOODY KNOW WHATS HAPPENING

it’s really depressing to see so much handwringing over what i thought/assumed was just basic human decency.

i mean it. i get seriously gobsmacked that this is confusing.

honestly i think the 'what is socially appropriate anymore omg' is not really the issue. i mean it is to the extent that men seem to want a clear answer about how gender and sex work in everyday situations, which ironically is usually a thing that men who are cut from a certain cloth of traditional masculinity want, a clear answer about something. but like most things, gender, sex and desire are changing really fast, so the key to me seems not to bemoan the change and act entitled to a world that doesn't exist anymore but to .. observe the change and accept it. try locating desire outside of objectification for once. or be as boring as possible like everyone else. who wants to have an "interesting" conversation with a coworker anyways?

lol crut

otm