Eh, I don't believe in Australia.
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:04 (six years ago) link
I'm sorry to hear that. if she fears something she knows does not exist, and therefore knows the fear is irrational and groundless, but is simply an artifact of childhood trauma caused by lying adults, then going to church to deal with that fear seems to embody an irreconcilable contradiction within her. still, if that's what she feels is imperative, then maybe she should go to church, but not to the same church that lied to her. she obviously has to do something to get her head straight.
― A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:12 (six years ago) link
My grandmother told me once my folks got divorced because we stopped going to church. This was during her final stretch years, vacillating between total love and insane Irish nun-style judgment. I think she thought it would put the fear into me, maybe I'd eventually become a priest in a small suburban Chicago parish. Anyway yadda yadda yadda eventually I married a nice Jewish girl from the valley.
― omar little, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:13 (six years ago) link
95% or more of adult men have groped a boob and/or a butt without any consent whatsoever, because the opportunity presented itself and when you’re under 25 you are still just a simian with a little less hair.― El Tomboto, Monday, December 4, 2017 10:58 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― El Tomboto, Monday, December 4, 2017 10:58 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I never did this
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:13 (six years ago) link
Idk if that was meant facetiously or not but still, I don’t think most men have done this.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:15 (six years ago) link
cf thread title sincerely good for you though
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:32 (six years ago) link
Tombot you should head to bed a little bit earlier
― .oO (silby), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:41 (six years ago) link
Not controversial
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:46 (six years ago) link
lmao speak for yourself damn
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 04:51 (six years ago) link
if you get diarrhea, it's your fault for sliding into first
― fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 05:49 (six years ago) link
Now my baby loves to do the cha cha chaShe loves to do the cha cha chaShe likes her, she likes to cha cha chaEverybody likes to cha cha cha
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 06:23 (six years ago) link
I have also never done this, and wouldn't call myself a paragon of virtue.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 10:02 (six years ago) link
TOmbot otm imo
― Illegal Ethiopian Dance Music (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 10:05 (six years ago) link
He’s cutting the over 25s too much slack.
― Luna Schlosser, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 10:11 (six years ago) link
fair
― Illegal Ethiopian Dance Music (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 10:15 (six years ago) link
tombot otm m/l
― ur-oik (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 12:07 (six years ago) link
"speak for yourself" is not a productive approach when looking at systemic issues imo
― ogmor, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 12:15 (six years ago) link
Neither is "whaddaya expect, men are garbage ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ " - it's just "boys will be boys" wrapped in a layer of cynicism
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 12:26 (six years ago) link
has anyone said that
― ogmor, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 12:36 (six years ago) link
That's how I read Tombot's post, not sure how else it can be read tbh
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 12:40 (six years ago) link
acknowledging guilt/the scale of a problem is not the same as throwing up your hands in the face of it
― ogmor, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 12:42 (six years ago) link
when you’re under 25 you are still just a simian with a little less hair.― El Tomboto
This is dehumanizing rhetoric and can only serve to alienate young men from feminist perspectives. I mostly see male feminists talking this way — people like Stephen Marche who wrote a column in the Times about the bestial nature of male sexuality. I don’t know why it’s considered constructive to make these essentialist arguments but people are doing it. Seems to have little to do with the purpose of the #metoo movement, which as I understood it was about stopping sexual harassment and assault, not insisting that we are all guilty in the eyes of God style fatalism.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:10 (six years ago) link
thanks ogmor. that is the correct interpretation per the author. Luna probably right though, was just using the old “the prefrontal cortex isn’t done baking until” age as my plimsoll line in this case. also I of course am in the 98th percentile of virtue I have no idea why anybody would think otherwise my decision making in my teens and twenties was impeccable how else do you think I wound up in the military harrumph.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:14 (six years ago) link
I’m not sure how acknowledging that a lot of men currently living are likely to have engaged in sexual harassment and/or battery when they were young dumb and you-know-what is “dehumanizing” unless you think it’s dehumanizing to acknowledge anything else that you ought to be fucking ashamed ofBe careful you don’t hurt your ankle coming down though
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:19 (six years ago) link
Because saying that almost everyone has done it lessens the implied individual guilt. Also element of "we're animals, we can't help it" - no, we can help it.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:26 (six years ago) link
^^otm
― Simon H., Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:34 (six years ago) link
Arguments like these are never about severing individual guilt, and always about leaving as much space as possible for individual innocence. #ControversialOpinion
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:34 (six years ago) link
I don’t think there is any “nature” to make sexuality, it’s nurture all the way down. “Boys will be boys” is an insipid tautology and to accuse me of thinking that is an insult (the other day when I posted something to that effect on the Weinstein thread after deej and shakey had their massive spat about who the king of jerk mountain was or whatever, I was trying for caricature, forgot about the five things that don’t come through in prose). Male sexuality’s “nature” is learned and it’s good to hear that posters who grew up after the age of Benny Hill, Porky’s, Animal House etc feel confident telling me I’m wrong. That alone is a good sign. I for one also suspect the sexual assault crises in the military services and on college campuses was there all along; it’s just being reported, investigated and accounted for now because our society is better and we’ve had just about enough.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:36 (six years ago) link
the five things that don’t come through in prose
wait what are the other four?
― Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:37 (six years ago) link
I made that up We should have a thread for nominations
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:39 (six years ago) link
You're otm though. The military, college/uni, the entertainment biz, and let us not forget the church: all institutes with huge power dynamics.
― Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:39 (six years ago) link
xp the fact that you made it up didn't come through your prose so that's one
― Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:40 (six years ago) link
I’ll fess up that the “simian with less hair” bit is both dehumanizing as well as universalizing bad conduct. It wasn’t necessary either but I reflexively needed to speciate youth from maturity 🤔 🤔
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 13:52 (six years ago) link
saying that almost everyone has done it lessens the implied individual guilt.
I don't think this is true, but what it does do is highlight how insufficient individual guilt is as a response
― ogmor, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:10 (six years ago) link
My memory of my teens and twenties is hazy, but I think I performed being a Sensitive New Age Guy, perhaps overmuch. I went to protests and held signs. I wore buttons. I attended lectures by Naomi Wolf and Germaine Greer; I read Susan Faludi; I did a non-insignificant amount of graduate-level Woolf scholarship.
To a degree that I am not proud of, I think this was at least partly a dating strategy. In retrospect, I can't say how much of it was following my own lights and how much was "will artsy feminist riot-grrly chicks dig that I am doing this?" With the unspoken corollary that they would presumably reward my wokeness by going to bed with me. If I was reading something very woke and third-wavey I sometimes tried to casually make sure that the women in my life knew it.
As I said, not proud of the simian side of that behavior pattern. Of course this was happening in a specifically chosen cultural surround: liberal arts school, bohemian neighborhood, lots of sex and drugs. In that surround, wokeness-avant-la-lettre was valued, not frat-bro alpha-male jock confidence. I have no idea how I would have behaved in a different environment.
― didgeridon't (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:18 (six years ago) link
pledged Phi Delt I imagine?
― ur-oik (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:23 (six years ago) link
HarshSigma Nu obv
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:27 (six years ago) link
Controversial opinion: some Greek societies have redeeming qualities
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:28 (six years ago) link
(Full disclosure I hate them all on principle)
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:29 (six years ago) link
I don't have any concept of what you guys are talking about with the Greek stuff. Completely outside my orbit.
But I saw Vagina Monologues TWICE, dudes. Many of my peers bought guitars and started learning Zeppelin, Hendrix, Rush. When I bought a guitar I immediately started learning Suzanne Vega, Tracy Chapman, Shawn Colvin, and Joni Mitchell tunes.
Was I doing what I wanted, or what I thought would land me chicks? I don't know, and cannot know at this remove. I do know that it "worked," in that I had a lot of female attention during that time, and only the warmest possible memories. But I carry a measure of guilt and ambivalence around how much of it was performed in order to get that attention.
― didgeridon't (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:32 (six years ago) link
Are you sure you're not just pretending to feel guilty and ambivalent?
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:36 (six years ago) link
I really bristle at this sort of contrivance, and the how its scope seemed to encompass your entire identity and lifestyle. Which I hate to say, because I don't mean to judge, and I admire your courage coming out with it. I just find it interesting that I was just p-shawing treesh and others who objected to tombots assertion, and here I am indignant toward your confession. And I have grabbed a butt or two, I think it was twice around age 19 at packed shows, even think I had a gf at the time :/ glad i cut it out when i did
― ur-oik (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:43 (six years ago) link
let’s break out the time machine, we can all zap ourselves back to 19 and see who lines up against who in the great ILX bro battle royale
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 14:54 (six years ago) link
Yeah, tbc, I admire YMP's honesty (and also his sensitive-bro PUA successes); my comment was meant as light ribbing.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:02 (six years ago) link
i am genuinely O_O at such an admission. it's validating to know my instincts were otm! i can't say thank you for doing it, but thank you for admitting it.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:03 (six years ago) link
you guys know it's possible to be as (performatively) woke as you wannabe and still do shitty things in a more private setting, right?
― after "after cease to exist" (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:10 (six years ago) link
'united binary states of america 'r us' would make a great gifted kid toy store name
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:12 (six years ago) link
I've long felt that the monolith of "girls" is to blame for so much of this behavior. It reminds me of how pervasive this idea was when I was in high school.
This is a line from an article about a guy I went to high school with -- he has a restaurant now and was profiled for a local writeup. i won't link it but the context is that he was reminiscing about growing up in our hometown. The writeup was published almost 3 years ago and this line continues to bounce around in my head. I looked it up and here it is:
Inside those abandoned industrial carapaces, sketchy kids built makeshift skate parks and shredded until the cops came to rustle them out. Rock shows, hard-core shows, girls, booze, rumbles. Regular shit.
Rock shows, hard-core shows, girls, booze, rumbles. Regular shit.[
It was not "regular shit" if you were a girl, a faceless nameless identityless girl. I know because I was there too and I was a girl. I am glad men are coming to grips with the way they have treated girls and young women. It doesn't undo any damage caused by treating girls as a faceless monolith to be conquered but it is validating.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:13 (six years ago) link
You couldn't pay me to be 19 again. 26? Mosdef.
― nashwan, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:13 (six years ago) link
i genuinely thought that staying away from fratty sporty bros would protect me -- turns out everyone was infected, even the punk boys.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 December 2017 15:15 (six years ago) link