Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

Competition is not inherently bad.

quoth treesh in response to tombot's assertion that 'when you’re under 25 you are still just a simian with a little less hair':

This is dehumanizing rhetoric and can only serve to alienate young men from feminist perspectives. I mostly see male feminists talking this way — people like Stephen Marche who wrote a column in the Times about the bestial nature of male sexuality. I don’t know why it’s considered constructive to make these essentialist arguments but people are doing it. Seems to have little to do with the purpose of the #metoo movement, which as I understood it was about stopping sexual harassment and assault, not insisting that we are all guilty in the eyes of God style fatalism.

I've been thinking about this a bit in light of a debate I went to about masculinity which had a lot of discussion about how we treat boys growing up and so on. this idea that there is a beastly predatory side to masculinity is v deeply ingrained and not at all unique to feminism - it's ubiquitous; it's the dad who's suspicious of his daughter's boyfriend. the other side of the coin to this distrust and dislike of other men is, ofc, a fraternity based on shared bad boy urges, that collective letting off steam after you're tired from fighting yr own bestial nature all the time cf. porn.

possibly related: I think a lot of men feel worthless in a particular sort of way. this idea that implicit in the notion that men have to prove themselves and be active, while women are prizes, is that men are in and of themselves worthless. it's tied to male homelessness, suicide, at least some criminal behaviour and general disregard of their own welfare. I think it's easy for men to embrace this under the guise of feminism or morality or whatever. but yeah, I wonder about nature and nurture and the effect of this understanding of masculinity on boys, on how they are treated and viewed and how they internalise it.

great post

this idea that implicit in the notion that men have to prove themselves and be active, while women are prizes, is that men are in and of themselves worthless.

"seed dispensers" iirc

I might argue that the subtext there is less that men are in and of themselves worthless and more that said worthlessness is framing device erected so that the women who get chewed up by the patriarchy have something philosophically comforting to fall back on (see also Christianity and slavery in the US).

only it's not comforting at all

...or a passive-aggressive ploy to fish for reassurance and require emotional labor of women?

He: I'm worthless because I haven't yet slain a mammoth for you.

She: Oh no, sweetie, don't tear yourself down so. You're great at gathering mosses!

i'm terrible at gathering mosses :(

I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me

emotional labour definitely feeds into this. its hard to be tender or loving with someone you don't trust. i don't think it's a ploy though, in general, even if, like everything else, it is sometimes deployed manipulatively.

Hey you can't spell manipulative w out man

or egomaniac

It doesn't have to be a ploy; it's endemic to the way our society is set up to function and how men and women are socialized to interact with each other.

The Laura kipnis article I posted in the Weinstein thread may have some relevance here

"the pedestal which is really a cage" is a great quote re: this. googled it just now and found that it's somehow attributed to RBG, but I remember reading it in a 90s catharine mackinnon book

ok so that mackinnon book is from 1984. maybe the aphorism itself is older than that even.

quoth treesh in response to tombot's assertion that 'when you’re under 25 you are still just a simian with a little less hair':

This is dehumanizing rhetoric and can only serve to alienate young men from feminist perspectives. I mostly see male feminists talking this way — people like Stephen Marche who wrote a column in the Times about the bestial nature of male sexuality. I don’t know why it’s considered constructive to make these essentialist arguments but people are doing it. Seems to have little to do with the purpose of the #metoo movement, which as I understood it was about stopping sexual harassment and assault, not insisting that we are all guilty in the eyes of God style fatalism.
I've been thinking about this a bit in light of a debate I went to about masculinity which had a lot of discussion about how we treat boys growing up and so on. this idea that there is a beastly predatory side to masculinity is v deeply ingrained and not at all unique to feminism - it's ubiquitous; it's the dad who's suspicious of his daughter's boyfriend. the other side of the coin to this distrust and dislike of other men is, ofc, a fraternity based on shared bad boy urges, that collective letting off steam after you're tired from fighting yr own bestial nature all the time cf. porn.

possibly related: I think a lot of men feel worthless in a particular sort of way. this idea that implicit in the notion that men have to prove themselves and be active, while women are prizes, is that men are in and of themselves worthless. it's tied to male homelessness, suicide, at least some criminal behaviour and general disregard of their own welfare. I think it's easy for men to embrace this under the guise of feminism or morality or whatever. but yeah, I wonder about nature and nurture and the effect of this understanding of masculinity on boys, on how they are treated and viewed and how they internalise it.

― ogmor, Tuesday, December 5, 2017 11:17 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

These are good posts and also bring up something I've been thinking about a lot lately, which is the relationship (and whether there is a necessary relationship) between male feminism and self-effacement. I tend to agree with Treesh that there's really no good that can come of the Stephen Marche brand of fantasy ("Oh, we men are so horrible in our dark souls!"), and that this almost results in a kind of underhanded inversion of feminism, or a subtle justification of the status quo. Relatedly, I think there is a danger in attaching only negative connotations to the sorts of traits we have historically seen as male -- aggression, competition, etc. Instead I like to think that (1) aggression and competition can be channeled in less harmful ways (2) women can also be more encouraged and permitted to express aggressive and competitive feelings (3) we can teach men not to do things like grope women without teaching them never to be aggressive or competitive. In fact #3 seems like it shouldn't even need saying, but based on the writings of people like Marche it obviously does.

And relatedly, there's no reason the same man (or woman) can't have both aggressive and sensitive tendencies, and why not encourage both? Why not try to allow for healthy ways to express the entire range of human emotion?

Why say 'self-effacement' when we can just say castration?

xp to preserve the status quo :(

at least that is what it seems like for me

afaict the sort of change you are describing requires women to be seen as equal to men in every way and that clearly still makes some people (people in prestige positions?) uncomfortable.

good posts. glad to see real discussion!

xp - i think it's because self-effacement is not actually castration

I don't know what "positive" aggression or competitiveness look like (outside of, like, competitive sports)

I've been working in a woman-owned law firm since summer, one that also has a few old-school alpha male types, and it's been interesting to see the dynamics at play, but ultimately I think it's so good for the work environment to have more of a balance of power between men and women. I have seen for example how when a female colleague was uncomfortable with the way a male higher-up treated her (not sexual but just overly aggressive in a way that I think some men are more socialized to tolerate but that probably isn't good for anyone). The woman felt very comfortable going to the female boss about it, the boss made sure the male supervisor got the message, he listened, and everything was fine in the end. None of this makes the workplace more stressful or "uptight," -- if anything, less so. It's the most comfortable place to work I've worked so far.

I don't know what "positive" aggression or competitiveness look like (outside of, like, competitive sports)

― Simon H., Wednesday, December 6, 2017 10:26 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Trying to excel at something, for example, has an element of aggression to it and can have an element of competitiveness to it as well in the right context. If you are in a class that is graded on a curve, for example, you are necessarily competing with your peers. I guess you could argue that we just shouldn't have classes graded on curves, but as long as we do it seems perfectly reasonable and healthy to try to do as well as you can in the class.

I agree with this - I think there is a danger in attaching only negative connotations to the sorts of traits we have historically seen as male - but I don't think aggression is good or particularly masculine, although certain expressions of it obviously are. A lot of the efforts to identify masculine behaviour seem incredibly superficial to me. I think you could address all of the obviously troublesome stuff and still have characteristically male behaviour. I also don't really buy the implicit suggestion that gender differences actually decrease as you go 'up the class ladder' or whatever, I just think the expressions are subtler (cf the cute phrase "the gentrification of masculinity" in a grayson perry doc which has stayed with me).

I think some of it is that even the word "aggression" has a negative connotation, but if we think of, e.g., the feeling a person gets as they are out for a run and trying to make it up a very steep hill and trying to give themselves that extra boost to make it over, that's in some sense an "aggressive" feeling, but the connotation of "aggressive" is I guess taking things from other people or using power against others in unfair ways.

I would describe the former sensation as determination, not aggression. Aggression is inherently interpersonal.

I hear it used a lot in sporting contexts and for solo activities at least it's the most benign interpretation (although still v individualistic and selfish), but, yeah, I agree w simon, I don't know how useful the overall concept is if it's broad enough to contain willing yourself up a hill and trying to intimidate people

FWIW the dictionary definition that comes up in google has both connotations:

hostile or violent behavior or attitudes toward another; readiness to attack or confront.
"his chin was jutting with aggression"
synonyms: hostility, aggressiveness, belligerence, bellicosity, force, violence; More
the action or an act of attacking without provocation.
plural noun: aggressions
"he called for an end to foreign aggression against his country"
forceful and sometimes overly assertive pursuit of one's aims and interests.
synonyms: confidence, self-confidence, boldness, determination, forcefulness, vigor, energy, zeal
"he played the game with unceasing aggression"

And that's kind of an interesting problem at the heart of all of this I think, which is how to separate the two, and how much of the conflation of the two is culturally determined

ha! i did the same thing -- and i found that the M-W dictionary definition was different from the googled definition, and skewed more negative. The googled definition (posted above) uses confidence as a synonym for aggression. this seems significant, if not relevant. and i'm not a sapir-whorf believer, it's just interesting that culturally, via usage, somehow self-confidence has been conflated with aggression.

aggression in general weirds me out. not talking about the notion of playing a game w/competitive zeal, but the day to day. i mean i guess it's mostly manifested at least in my day to day life w/how people drive. it's probably the last frontier where people are actively trying to physically engage in some kind of combat. it's like a low-grade Pacific Rim out there!

the other day i was about to cross the street w/my six year old when a tow truck flew through the stop sign. since this tow truck does it every day, like every day for a year, i guess i was fed up at that moment esp. with the context and shouted "STOP!" and the dude pulled over, stepped out, and SCREAMED. no words, he just howled. by this point i had already walked around the corner so he was howling at a void. i guess he was angry that i had told him to stop after he drove through a stop sign when a dude with a kid was about to cross. i guess i wasn't empathetic enough!!

people are insane and unpredictable w/their aggression. they will kill you over nothing. i should remember that.

he should have been a linebacker for the Bengals, maybe.

when i was in high school, i wrote a narrative essay about how my boyfriend and i had driven to cleveland to see a concert (alice in chains if you must know, not my choice but i was up for whatever). we had gotten lost, and were endlessly winding our way through one-way streets without a map or any idea where we were going. i thought it was a funny story. my teacher handed it back to me, and said that from what i had written in the essay, she thinks i should break up with this person immediately on account of the aggression he showed when under pressure in the car -- aggression I had narrated in abundant detail, thinking it was just part of the funny story. i was really embarrassed at the time, but she was right. and i have thought about this paper and this advice on countless occasions when confronted with a friend or student or anyone i know in a relationship with an aggressive man.

halfhearted apols for the personal tmi but it felt good/like a relief to share, and is related to crazy driving as posted above

i also read a lot of narrative essays for work, so it's something i think about frequently while reading student essays

Driving does fucked up things to the ego, imo. I say this as someone who started driving to work again recently for the first time in years, and I do find myself enjoying speeding and weaving on the highway a little too much.

she thinks i should break up with this person immediately on account of the aggression he showed when under pressure in the car -- aggression I had narrated in abundant detail, thinking it was just part of the funny story. i was really embarrassed at the time, but she was right. and i have thought about this paper and this advice on countless occasions when confronted with a friend or student or anyone i know in a relationship with an aggressive man.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, December 6, 2017 4:39 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes. Same. After being through a couple of these situations, I see the interactions more clearly now and it's an immediate cut-off for dealing with that person.

my wife is extremely good at reading car body language, for lack of a better term. we'll be driving and she'll say, "that guy's about to do something stupid," and she's always right. the only thing i've ever noticed is that anyone hanging their left arm out and window and dangling it straight down is pretty much ALWAYS pissed off about something and is going to drive aggressively somehow.

i think a certain type of highly aggressive driving is an exceptionally good indicator of a person to steer clear of in everyday life, not just on the road.

Re "aggression" in general as a marker/performance of gender, maybe you could say aggression is a behavior, motivated by any number of feelings including anger or "competitiveness" or "determination" but equally or even more likely as a reaction to lots of feelings that it's NOT an appropriate behavior for, like sadness, grief, anxiety, discomfort, offendedness, insecurity, etc. The extent to which aggressiveness/exerting power over others stands in for a whole group of disparate emotional states is maybe the part where toxic masculinity becomes clearest? That it rewards men for depriving themselves of all those richer options for self-expression and affect.

the only thing i've ever noticed is that anyone hanging their left arm out and window and dangling it straight down is pretty much ALWAYS pissed off about something and is going to drive aggressively somehow.

Especially in the UK imo

Re "aggression" in general as a marker/performance of gender, maybe you could say aggression is a behavior, motivated by any number of feelings including anger or "competitiveness" or "determination" but equally or even more likely as a reaction to lots of feelings that it's NOT an appropriate behavior for, like sadness, grief, anxiety, discomfort, offendedness, insecurity, etc. The extent to which aggressiveness/exerting power over others stands in for a whole group of disparate emotional states is maybe the part where toxic masculinity becomes clearest? That it rewards men for depriving themselves of all those richer options for self-expression and affect.

― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Wednesday, December 6, 2017 12:10 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, absolutely, all of this.

I also am coming to realize my own complicated relationship to this because I grew up in a household where any kind of male anger was per se considered threatening and was strongly discouraged, so I'm sort of coming to deal with a lot of unexpressed anger later in life and trying to sort it all out, including its relationship to sadness and other feelings.

'we're going to aggressively address sexual harrassment in the workplace'

i found this program after watching the weinstein frontline doc and it covers some interesting ground
the host is well seasoned and isn't afraid to ask questions. the guests were well-chosen and had interesting perspectives.
would recommend i guess? http://www.pbs.org/program/metoo-now-what/

This:

Toxic masculinity is a panopticon that trains boys at an early age to live in constant fear of deviating from a very narrow & constricting prescription of behavior & the alienation & other reprisals that would come should they be outed as individuals with complex interior lives.

— Annie Sugar (@sugarphd) March 4, 2018

Is it

Huh

What % of masculinity is toxic tho

the theme song for this has made a big comeback in my head over the last couple of years http://i.imgur.com/t14gINP.jpg

Was it not avengers or what am I recollecting

barfy word salad

I GUESS I agree with some of this, but I am not sure I agree with the framing.

Toxic masculinity is a panopticon that trains boys at an early age to live in constant fear of deviating from a very narrow & constricting prescription of behavior

Okay, but. Sure, I do think that some of my peers had (at times) a fairly narrow and constricting prescription of behavior. And I do think I was punished for deviating from it. But not all deviation is automatically laudable, and that's sort of what this implies. Some of the time, I was in fact being a precious, affected dorkwad. That's why this seems a bridge too far for me:

& the alienation & other reprisals that would come should they be outed as individuals with complex interior lives.

I didn't enjoy getting beaten up on the playground (and I don't think I "deserved" it). But I would stop short of the implication here that every bully is a dumb brute and every victim is a saint (with a complex! interior! life!).

Like a lot of people, by 10th grade or so I fell in with a bunch of other weirdos. We were all SO CERTAIN that our weirdness made us special and the NORMIES just couldn't handle our SPECIALNESS, because they were all stupid automatons who lacked a "complex interior life."

Now I am old enough to understand that those guys were going through their own things, and they operated under constraints and within boundaries that made sense to them. Treating that as a morality play where "they" are the bad guys and "we" are the good guys is oversimplifying at best, not least because it is so flattering.

Darragh - are you thinking of this guy?

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5SpY3YhOzbz40pCE3_EX41aEBW3XKPCyKZlwuvgfGuExSkfk2