At the same time, cultures that prioritize zero-sum competitive success tend to downplay collaborative, cooperative, non-zero-sum activities.
― loretta swit happens (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, November 17, 2017 10:14 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is like almost every modern nation, even the most communitarian countries
we've reached a point in the discussion where the philosopher is beating himself now
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Friday, 17 November 2017 18:29 (six years ago) link
True but iirc twas you isolated sports as a realm that involved these bahaviours
no. please learn to read. someone else brought up sports as a good example of an outlet/channel for turning violent and aggressive behavior towards non-violent and non-aggressive activities.
to which I pointed out that sports are historically very violent. which is a fact.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 18:31 (six years ago) link
So is everything
― fake pato is kind of racist, dude (darraghmac), Friday, 17 November 2017 18:32 (six years ago) link
ps can't read did sports at school
turning violent and aggressive behavior towards non-violent and non-aggressive activities.
― Οὖτις, Friday, November 17, 2017 10:31 AM (twenty-one seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i never said sport is non-violent and non-aggressive
you should take your own advice
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Friday, 17 November 2017 18:32 (six years ago) link
Lads
I bumped a sports thread fyi
― fake pato is kind of racist, dude (darraghmac), Friday, 17 November 2017 18:33 (six years ago) link
can't believe i'm quoting my god damn self now on ilx
some kids really do need an outlet for their anger/energy and sports is a good way to release it, especially as a referee is more or less monitoring their aggression. if done properly there are consequences for a boy overdoing it. the lack of supervision that leads to something serious is not inherent to sports. it's the responsibility of the coach, trainer, and/or parents. sports is not meant to mellow out aggressive boys or cure aggression. it's just one componenthaving said that, minor hockey, as an example, is restricting fighting more and more since i was a kid and they are teaching kids more about technique/finesse and overall good sportsmanship― i n f i n i t y (∞), Friday, November 17, 2017 9:38 AM (fifty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
having said that, minor hockey, as an example, is restricting fighting more and more since i was a kid and they are teaching kids more about technique/finesse and overall good sportsmanship
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Friday, November 17, 2017 9:38 AM (fifty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Friday, 17 November 2017 18:35 (six years ago) link
xp to lg well yeah I mean that's the thread kinda but throwing sport under a bus is.....I don't wanna say it's maybe what you'd expect a ilx poster to do while advocating we all do music instead.....but ....
oh yeah, i was agreeing with you by pointing that out.
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 17 November 2017 18:57 (six years ago) link
Historically, opposing groups of music fans have not murdered each other en masse.
Historically, sports fans haven't either, unless you're thinking of examples I can't call to mind.
I grew up in the age of mods vs rockers, teds vs punks, that's fairly analogous to football hooliganism as far as I can tell.
― Tim, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:15 (six years ago) link
I posted some links
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:22 (six years ago) link
Jack Nicholson went mental with a croquet mallet that one time
― the intentional phallusy (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:27 (six years ago) link
On the other hand Mick Jagger stabbed that black guy so we might be level here
― the intentional phallusy (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:29 (six years ago) link
lot of writers done jail time. Dostoevsky, Wilde, Jeffrey Archer
― the intentional phallusy (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:30 (six years ago) link
xp you did - missed that, sorry. To be fair, only the last of the three, all of which sound unbelievably awful in their different ways, seems to represent sports fans killing each other en masse.
― Tim, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:34 (six years ago) link
sunday is international men's day, fyi
― mookieproof, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:34 (six years ago) link
but then you've gotta factor in all the people who've killed themselves because Morrissey told them too
― the intentional phallusy (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:35 (six years ago) link
lotta people got shivved during the "Rite of Spring" riots
― the intentional phallusy (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:36 (six years ago) link
Stevie Gerrard kicking the shit out of that DJ probably goes down as a score draw
― the intentional phallusy (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:38 (six years ago) link
The only problem with sport is that people follow male-only teams or male competitors to a vastly disproportionate level & thus valourise sport as above all a clash of men, which is p patriarchal
I watched some women's cricket this morning otoh so I am pure and great j/k j/k obviously I watch way, way more men's stuff and have a Charlton men's season ticket and watch men's cricket and men's snooker and men's everything more than women's equivalent and the culture might change towards equality but the change is p glacial even with the tangible progress of the last couple decades
― imago, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:38 (six years ago) link
*makes j/k off motion*
― fake pato is kind of racist, dude (darraghmac), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:43 (six years ago) link
obv the ideal is mixed teams on merit. one day perhaps
― imago, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:44 (six years ago) link
would like to devise a sport that gives men and women equal chances to be successful when pitted against each other. it's the great sport-theory challenge of our day
― imago, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:45 (six years ago) link
xp Yeah Marlowe got offed in a South London poetry beef irc.
Astor Place riots probably a more apposite example of non-sports crowds put to deadly ends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astor_Place_Riot
ANYWAY I agree that all of these things totally suck but it doesn't make any sense to me to see mass-spectator sport based violence as anything other than a symptom of the broader problem of violence under discussion.
― Tim, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:46 (six years ago) link
xp. i enjoy women's sport. i go to women's fitba sometimes, would do so more often if there were a professional team where i live. but (not to be facts don't care about your feelings) sexual dimorphism in humans is an actual thing that exists and the nature of most sports means that male sport will tend to be more interesting to watch.
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:48 (six years ago) link
integrate curling imo
― mookieproof, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:50 (six years ago) link
would like to devise a sport that gives men and women equal chances to be successful when pitted against each other
Quidditch iirc
― loretta swit happens (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:51 (six years ago) link
xps. good things about women's sport - specifically football - less bro'y crowd, families, women, queer people. less money so less sponsorship crap everywhere. less money so less cheating - i.e. PEDs which are definitely a feature of men's soccer don't seem to have trickled down.
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:51 (six years ago) link
Did you mean hurling mookie
― fake pato is kind of racist, dude (darraghmac), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:53 (six years ago) link
i did not
― mookieproof, Friday, 17 November 2017 19:54 (six years ago) link
Benefit of doubt rescinded
― fake pato is kind of racist, dude (darraghmac), Friday, 17 November 2017 19:55 (six years ago) link
Hurling Mookie = underrated 90s jam band
― loretta swit happens (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 17 November 2017 20:03 (six years ago) link
― the intentional phallusy (Noodle Vague), Friday, November 17, 2017 7:38 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
lol
― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 17 November 2017 20:45 (six years ago) link
it doesn't make any sense to me to see mass-spectator sport based violence as anything other than a symptom of the broader problem of violence under discussion.
I'm getting kind of tired of repeating myself, but this isn't what I did. I was refuting the idea that sports are a non-violent/non-aggressive outlet for that type of behavior. Which is counter-intuitive given how deeply embedded in our violent culture sports have been, historically speaking. Some people may find it adequate as a healthy outlet that prevents them from murdering people, other people will use it as outlet for murdering people. Hurray humanity.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 21:33 (six years ago) link
Can't measure all the lives saved thru sport so I spose we'll have to call this.....a tie
― fake pato is kind of racist, dude (darraghmac), Friday, 17 November 2017 21:34 (six years ago) link
I see what you did there
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 21:42 (six years ago) link
I was refuting the idea that sports are a non-violent/non-aggressive outlet for that type of behavior.
No one said it was a non-violent/non-aggressive outlet. What was said is that it is an outlet where the violence and aggression can be controlled and channeled into something positive under the correct guidance.
― the Hannah Montana of the Korean War (DJP), Friday, 17 November 2017 21:49 (six years ago) link
difference w out a distinction imo
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 21:56 (six years ago) link
I mean my point stands, sports often fails to control and channel violence and aggression into something positive. It's just as likely to just get channeled into actual violence and aggression.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 21:57 (six years ago) link
high school jocks were some of the most psychotically violent ppl I've ever known. In contrast to the psychotic violence of the less socially adept outcasts and weirdos, jocks' violence was laughed off/approved of/explicitly condoned.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 21:59 (six years ago) link
and why cause sports
because sports
bah
we didn't have organized sports at my high school and the boys that were good at soccer were still often the most violent/good at fighting
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 17 November 2017 22:02 (six years ago) link
The most psychotically violent ppl I knew from high school were white potsmoking metalheads. They had little to nothing to do with organized sports of any kind; they were too busy terrorizing other students and selling drugs to be on the football team (who bought a lot of acid from them).
― the Hannah Montana of the Korean War (DJP), Friday, 17 November 2017 22:04 (six years ago) link
So, my thesis is that white men are violent dickbags that need to be controlled but won't be, because other violent white men set the rules for success.
― the Hannah Montana of the Korean War (DJP), Friday, 17 November 2017 22:05 (six years ago) link
well no argument there
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 22:06 (six years ago) link
Speaking as an effete outsider to the world of jocks, I want to say that my experiences with these people did not lead me to see them as “psychotically violent.”
― treeship 2, Friday, 17 November 2017 22:07 (six years ago) link
gonna go out on a limb here and guess that we all went to different schools at different times in different parts of the country
― Οὖτις, Friday, 17 November 2017 22:08 (six years ago) link
Ahem
― fake pato is kind of racist, dude (darraghmac), Friday, 17 November 2017 22:08 (six years ago) link
thought the dangerous violence of sport was a universal
― the intentional phallusy (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 November 2017 22:10 (six years ago) link
Historically, sports fans haven't [murdered each other en masse] either, unless you're thinking of examples I can't call to mind.
sounds like someone should read up about the culture around chariot racing and esp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots
― ogmor, Friday, 17 November 2017 22:10 (six years ago) link