US Politics November 2017

Story is revolting

The disrespect in the pic is beyond idiotic, I doubt I would have done anything that stupid even as a teenager

his home state is currently undergoing one of those statehouse-harassment things, touching both D(FL)s and Rs, so the rhetorical field is not favorable to a no-consequence response by local or national Ds to his groping story

he won election on a contentious recount and the Rs have had a majority in the statehouse and trump did embarrassingly ok here so it's not really an awesome time to be losing a solid D senator. : /

I just don't see it, it kinda doesn't matter how many people tweet about it - if he maintains the support of Klobuchar and the Dem nat'l party apparatus he could weather it. if he was up for re-election it would be a different story.

when was the last time a sitting Senator voluntarily resigned? I can't remember.

xp

as j. points out - the larger party is going to look at this as losing a Senate seat in a non-election year, they aren't going to swallow that easily

He should resign by the end of the day. Fuck the party.

Not the greatest choice of words Shakey

Hey Al, what's your memory of that rehearsal? Curious to know

hey it's not my fault yr mind's in the gutter!

xp

it is pretty gross and if a woman comes forward about feeling violated by a man we should believe her, full stop, none of that "well you see it doesn't seem to be that bad etc" and the man should have to deal with the consequences appropriate to what he did.

this is a good test! no one liked Harvey Weinstein, no one cared about Kevin Spacey, here's a guy who many were saying should run in 2020 and he's politically sharp and seems decent in his policies, but the people we already hate can't be the only ones who pay in this circumstance.

i don’t think he needs to resign either, but tbh i’ve never been on board with the social media “this person did a bad thing so let’s get them to lose their job” thing.

what is clear is that that photo is grotesque, he should be ashamed of himself, and he owes her a better apology than the one he’s released to the public

stupid morality and its stupid tests

the larger party is going to look at this as losing a Senate seat in a non-election year, they aren't going to swallow that easily

By Minnesota law, Democratic governor would appoint replacement if Franken quits, w/ special election next year. So Dems have no political reason not to ask him to resign. pic.twitter.com/juq59umPXI

— Aaron Wiener (@aaronwiener) November 16, 2017

i think it makes sense (politically, machiavellianly) for republicans to try bring the hammer down on franken. sexual assault is a bipartisan problem. if franken goes down in this way, that could open the floodgates to accusations of both republicans and democrats. the difference is that democrats are much more willing to voluntarily police behavior from their ingroup. republicans are not like that. these are the senate republicans who stole the supreme court seat, plainly, and just grimaced like a turtle at anyone who called them out on it. so i can imagine them being willing to open up pandora's box of accusations, knowing that their lack of shame gives them an advantage

fuck this year and this life btw

well that doesn't sound so bad, although I dunno who the decent candidates are that would replace him

xp

Karl's analysis is probably otm

YMP - the Moore-supporting right has already decided Franken is guilty, and the multiple accusers of Moore are politically motivated liars. Franken stepping down amid left-wing condemnation won't change their views an iota. They'll return to Clinton as soon as Franken isn't handy. This isn't to say he shouldn't resign anyway, it's just that scoring points on right wing shitheads is not the reason.

Just yesterday I thought, "This week a woman will accuse a Dem legislator of assault or harassment." It's inevitable. Burn the fucking thing down.

yes otm. I assume any Dems clamoring for his resignation are doing so because they think a no-tolerance policy for elected officials in this respect is the right thing to do.

xp

the advantage for the right here is the photo. though if this was a Roy Moore photo the right wing twittersphere would already be analyzing the shadows, checking for photoshops, identifying the woman as having been one of Trump's accusers.

the governor is on his way out, he's not running for re-election, my guess is that a special election for the senate seat would be considered a potential pickup for Rs, though it would be expected to go D. but it would depend on the candidates.

i know an old staffer of franken's who has been following all the harassment stories closely, i will be watching to see what she says

stupid morality and its stupid tests

the always moral United States of America superpower, drenched in blood every day of its existence.

"As to the photo,"

good apologizing

hough if this was a Roy Moore photo the right wing twittersphere would already be analyzing the shadows, checking for photoshops, identifying the woman as having been one of Trump's accusers.

― omar little, Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:42 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

left-liberal photoshop truthers are already on the case tbf

Per the picture data
Original Date/Time {0x9003} = 2006:12:21 17:19:30
Digitization Date/Time {0x9004} = 2006:12:21 17:19:30

Software / Firmware Version {0x0131} = Adobe Photoshop 7.0
Last Modified Date/Time {0x0132} = 2009:07:01 22:30:56

— zedster (@z3dster) November 16, 2017

i didn't say he should resign (although i do).

i'm saying he will. he's a 90s comedian, so there's no way this is the last of it. and he's in MN, so it's not like he's irreplaceable or the seat is vulnerable. there's not much incentive for the state or national party to protect him because of that.

Franken did a little better on his second try

NEW FRANKEN STATEMENT pic.twitter.com/c3puSkK9Ts

— Sam Stein (@samstein) November 16, 2017

He degraded and violated a woman. Of course he should go. His "not how I remember it but apols anyway" is some stupid shit.

xp ah, statement two

and he's in MN, so it's not like he's irreplaceable or the seat is vulnerable.

the seat is vulnerable

I'm not saying political calculations outweigh moral ones here, but in terms of what's going to happen significant actors *will* be making political calculations about this.

to those upthread - yeah, okay. Agreed that we shouldn't do stuff just to placate Breitbart, which will never ever happen. (Aside: try to say "placate Breitbart" five times fast).

But OTOH I'm not going to expend a lot of sweat defending Franken (or Weiner, or B. Clinton, or whoev).

second statement doesn't change a thing imo.

I think he improved the way he addressed it, doesn't let him off the hook though

stupid morality and its stupid tests

― j., Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:36 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I have no opinion on the calculus of whether or not Franken should resign. But I think asking our elected representatives to be accountable for offenses against others is, I hope, neither a stupid morality test nor too high a bar? Or not to have acts of sexual assault in their pasts at all--I don't think that's too much to ask.

caek, he's a '70s comedian, so double the potential offenses

xp you misread me

Okay sorry, maybe I wasn't following.

WaPo: Update: Three of Franken’s colleagues, Sens. Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.), Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) and Tim Kaine (D-Va.) have expressed initial support for a Senate investigation.

no i mean yes of course we should be moral but rrrrrrrrrrrr

it would be so cool to be a nihilist republican

he called for an ethics investigation in his own (second) statement, so i assume everyone will be onboard

from same WaPo story:

The outcome of a 2018 special election isn’t entirely certain, but, unlike neighboring states, Democrats in Minnesota weathered the Trump surge last year to hand its electoral votes to Hillary Clinton by a narrow margin. Sen. Amy Klobuchar, Franken’s peer, is also on the ballot; her seat is rated by the Cook Political Report as “solid Democratic.” An off-year election might normally be disadvantageous to the Democrats, but 2018 is shaping up to be a strong year for the party nationally because of the deep unpopularity of the president.

seems to me that the main issue is what the social standard for handling these kinds of accusations is, because it's clearly shifting (which is good!) but to what exactly isn't clear. Is anyone who is accused of anything automatically disqualified from serving in public office, or being employed? Is there no punishment/rehabilitation/other course of action short of being banned from public life as a pariah that is acceptable? I'm not trying to be facetious or combative here, I expect there's a range of opinions about this.

I do think this larger question has some political implications because as noted upthread one side is going to be more inclined to weaponize this in unsavory ways than the other - the GOP realizing they can destroy opponents simply by making accusations (absent any legal proceeding/burden of proof beyond "always believe the victim"), it is going to get real ugly real quick. Uglier than things are now, even. They will see this as a weakness on the left that they can exploit for gain. To be clear, I am not saying that is what's going on in this particular case with Franken, I have no reason to doubt Leeann's statement and the photo is incontrovertible evidence, but you have to imagine the wheels turning in McConnell et al's heads.

xxp

he called for an ethics investigation in his own (second) statement, so i assume everyone will be onboard

yes. duh.

He's calling Leeann Tweeden a liar

Not sure how an "investigation" will address that

the "i don't remember it the same way" bit comes from the usual playbook despite the apologetic tone.

the right-wing already has absorbed the logic that accusers are all liars doing it for attention/political gain - it's not a far jump from there to doing it themselves. and certainly the alt-right has gone full-bore in turning the left's ideals/precepts about things like free speech against the left. Not to mention the right-wing echo chamber's pension for totally fake conspiracy theories like pizzagate. It seems kind of inevitable.

xp

acknowledging differences in memory /= "liar" accusations. People's memories diverge all the time, about everything...? how is that even debatable.

just bcz the tactic is used by liars doesn't always mean those words are a lie.

However, I am predisposed to think ill of Franken. (He's a Clintonite, after all.)