Louie (Louis C.K.'s show on FX)

what CK has been doing is assault. in my opinion.

i think it's pretty easy for men to say it's not as bad but then again every woman i've talked to about this kind of thing has talked about it being kind of traumatic. is Weinstein worse? well, I would say he was worse, sure. but then again, wrong is wrong and "they gave off unclear signals" is like an exceptionally poor excuse.

some of the situations are more clear cut than others. the woman who agreed to come to his office - not assault. that is consent imo. the tig story is gross af but again not sure it's assault. the two comedian women he invited back and then asked if he could pull his penis out in front of - they giggled and he did it anyway. that's the closest one of these to assault imo but again there's obvious ambiguity there.

Both cross the line of the integrity of, in this case, a woman, while you are the superior.

I don't get the "yall will hate me pointing it out here people, but I've got news for you" stance.

Literally no one on here said CK was a rapist.

weinstein vs. ck's behavior is really not a hair worth splitting

― een, Friday, November 10, 2017 12:42 PM (eight minutes ago)

shut the fuck up, Mordy, who gives a shit

That does not say CK is a rapist in any way you want to interpret it. xp

hey whiney don't you have some concern trolling about youtube parenting struggles among the poor to do?

Regardless of the varying motivations and degrees of consent, I would guess that the women on the receiving end of any of this would agree that it's not really a hair worth splitting.

hello i already said that

People don't necessarily differentiate the cases. It seems everyone accused might as well kill themselves equally.

On the other hand, treating them equally makes it clear that no degree or context of this behavior is ok. That's a good thing to convey.

something striking about the new movie in retrospect, is that it contains a lot of lengthy discussions about imbalanced power relationships, gender politics, parenting and sexuality, etc. but what's missing is any depiction of trauma; the (adult) women in the film are all empowered and know exactly what they want and how to get it; the Rose Byrne character even has a scene where she tells the CK character that she had "a relationship" with an older man when she was underage and that she doesn't regret it, to which he answers that she wasn't in a position to consent, and that the situation was simply rape. and yet no one ever has a bad word to say aboutt heir encounters with the Woody Allen stand-in played by Malkovich

You saw it?

unless you're the police investigating him or a prosecutor, who cares about these "technicalities". he did gross sexual stuff that woman were traumatized by, the end. calculating the exact amount we should be outraged or precisely how negatively we should view him is silly.

I saw it at TIFF yeah xp

there are all kinds of things that are not rape that happen really fast and you say wait did that really happen and they end up fucking you up for a long time. is the thing. people do shitty stuff all the time that they don't think is that bad that is really bad. and i'm glad these women are talking about it. i also feel like power is definitely an issue but that harvey and CK would be doing the same sorts of things even if they worked in a hardware store. their fuckedupness is really common unfortunately.

putting aside the power imbalance issue which i think is complicated - if he asked a woman to come to his office to watch him masturbate (and apparently w/out any threat or explicit pressure) and she did, and she felt uncomfortable about it, it's just not the same as sexual assault without consent.

harvey and CK would be doing the same sorts of things even if they worked in a hardware store. their fuckedupness is really common unfortunately.

fucked upedness is common but c'mon it's the power differential that enabled them to get away with this shit for so long and so often.

i'm personally not cool collapsing all these things into one thing. if two ppl have consensual sex and one person found it distasteful and disliked it and maybe it even weighed on them afterwards, but no consent was violated, then it wasn't assault.

unless you're the police investigating him or a prosecutor, who cares about these "technicalities". he did gross sexual stuff that woman were traumatized by, the end. calculating the exact amount we should be outraged or precisely how negatively we should view him is silly.

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Friday, November 10, 2017 12:56 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think people feel the need to differentiate when to say "fuck you, kill yourself" vs. "fuck you, get help and also fuck you"

It’s surprising these two wouldn’t just pay someone to do it in their off hours instead of “shitting where they eat” as the saying goes.

Mordy, imagine someone is at an outing with like their boss or someone who has some degree of control over their future, and that more powerful individual decides to start masturbating in front of the other. Grinning and bearing it in that situation does not in any way constitute consent, imo.

that's not what happened in any of these situations afaict. he asked permission in all of them and in none of them did they say no and he did it anyway.

How many women need to tell you that abuse of power for sexual coercion is traumatizing and, even if there's some question about the letter of the law applying here, the more important human truth is that it IS functionally an attack or assault on you as a person, on your personhood and rights. The law lags behind the social change that recognizes harm to marginalized groups, we know this.

This whole "we need to establish fine gradations of traumatic actions" thing is a) tiresome, b) is masking the fact that you have talked over several women in the last 30 minutes of this thread, c) is also masking the fact that what women are saying is "STOP BEING SHITTY TO WOMEN, IN WAYS OF ALL MAGNITUDES, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL ALIKE IN THEIR SHITTINESS AND YOU KNOW IT AND ARE DOING/ALLOWING IT BY CHOICE."

he asked permission in all of them

just asking "can i masturbate in front of you?" is already fucking traumatizing, he's such a piece of shit.

It's not about the other person saying "yes" or "no", it's about not putting people in that situation in the first place when there's a) no basis/precedent for that behavior in the context of that relationship and b) a clear power imbalance. xxp

is masking the fact that you have talked over several women in the last 30 minutes of this thread,

you're a pretty shitty person fyi and i'm done here. i said my piece. i think probably a lot more ppl agree w/ me than are willing to say. that's fine. it's far from the first time.

Louis C.K.'s statement: "I’ve brought pain to my family, my friends, my children and their mother." pic.twitter.com/Wb5fikaomj

— Kate Aurthur (@KateAurthur) November 10, 2017

he asked permission in all of them
just asking "can i masturbate in front of you?" is already fucking traumatizing, he's such a piece of shit.

― omar little, Friday, November 10, 2017 1:17 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes. It is so damn weird. Imagine just being normal and hanging out and someone asking this. I honestly think that a lot of people would be so horrified/shocked that they wouldn't even know what to do and would just freeze.

Mordy you are being obtuse about the nature of consent in these situations.

I'll admit that on a gut level Weinstein seems way "worse", but that's speaking as a str8 male, and I'm willing to be told I'm wrong on it, and it also seems like a supremely unimportant point right now.

xp

i think probably a lot more ppl agree w/ me than are willing to say. that's fine. it's far from the first time.

lol

or at the very least they gave off unclear signals (giggling instead of saying no when he asked them)

Newsflash: women often respond to the grotesque suggestions of men with uncomfortable laughter and an inability to instantly say "No," like literally everybody in the world knows this.

is masking the fact that you have talked over several women in the last 30 minutes of this thread,

you're a pretty shitty person fyi and i'm done here. i said my piece. i think probably a lot more ppl agree w/ me than are willing to say. that's fine. it's far from the first time.

― Mordy, Friday, November 10, 2017 10:19 AM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this post is going to age so badly when the panoply of louis ck's crimes drips out

Anyway the lurkers support me in email.

ppl have already PM'd me saying they agree but are afraid of speaking up i mean not shocking considering the level of judginess and fear around anything that even suggests that you condone this kind of gross behavior, or the fear that someone will weaponize her identity/ideology to put you in your place. not to mention all the fps you'll surely incur. xxpz

"when the panoply of louis ck's crimes drips out"

use other words plz

i think probably a lot more ppl agree w/ me than are willing to say. that's fine.

lol

ppl have already PM'd me saying they agree but are afraid of speaking up i mean not shocking considering the level of judginess and fear around anything that even suggests that you condone this kind of gross behavior, or the fear that someone will weaponize her identity/ideology to put you in your place. not to mention all the fps you'll surely incur. xxpz

― Mordy, Friday, November 10, 2017 10:28 AM (thirty-five seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

tell these milquetoasts "fuck you" from me

like u guys act like i'm new to this message board. i've been getting yelled at for holding non-hegemonic opinions for probably over a decade now.

who's weaponizing their identity now?

in orbit is in no way a shitty person fyi

Yeah, actually, I'm not going to hide behind the 'posts you had second thoughts about' thread. Your in orbit attack post was pretty much completely indefensible, Mordy.

after about a decade of interacting w/ her i disagree i don't think she's v nice but it's really off-topic.

like u guys act like i'm new to this message board. i've been getting yelled at for holding non-hegemonic opinions for probably over a decade now.

― Mordy, Friday, November 10, 2017 10:30 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

great hill to die on, mordy

that's a better statement than anyone else has given out so far. he needs to go away for a while now.

also: fuck a dave becky for telling those women not to talk about what happened to them in public! wtf? fuck that guy.

Simon H.
Posted: 10 November 2017 at 18:17:29
It's not about the other person saying "yes" or "no", it's about not putting people in that situation in the first place when there's a) no basis/precedent for that behavior in the context of that relationship and b) a clear power imbalance. xxp

This seems self-evident to me, even without b) that sort of proposition instinctively codes as harassment to me. I'm not even really sure what the counter-argument is tbh

x-post IO isn't obligated to be nice to you or anyone else.

Not being "nice" doesn't make her a "shitty person". At all.