KIDEODROME: scary "Kid's Youtube" algorithms, fringe programming, insert conspiracy theory here

Well indeed, but I dont get why its not just as easy to pop a kid in front of a big pile of pencils/crayons and paper and some books?

Both the crayon box and the book will be much less effective. Basing this on my own childhood memories (I don't have kids), the thing was that if you gave a kid some crayons they'd be occupied for a while but then they'd want to show you what they drew, talk about it, etc. Book keeps them occupied until they finish it (if they're a super fast/passionate reader) or (more likely) they get tired of reading. But give the kid a Game Boy and they're mollified for as long as you could possibly want them to be. I imagine the same is true for tablets.

(This is also one of the reasons why, in absolute terms, giving them crayons or books is better - but in terms of efficiency, this is how it plays out imo).

the screen obsession in kids is pretty crazy - my nephews are 5, 9, and 11 and they are obsessed with playing games on their kindles. kindle rules all in their house. kindle is the currency, the penal system, the reward. the tantrums they have or the good things they do mostly seem related to kindle, eg it's an incentive or a punishment, a cause or a cure. it seems incredibly difficult, i don't know how a parent is supposed to cope, presumably if you tell your kids they're not having this then they're alienated from all the other kids who do.

another part of me is suspicious of any moral question about new technology, not the stuff itt but the associated discussion of the effects of technology on kids. i never know whether to think "humans are resilient, we've been responding to new technology for years and people have been saying it will destroy us for years" or "maybe this new technology actually is dangerous"

perhaps both: human beings have always been shaped by technology, and mass cultural technology in particular: printing press, recorded music, broadcast media, internet. but there's no pre-lapsarian humanity, no innocence to lose. each technology shapes us in good and bad ways, and maybe more bad than good, as each technology has come out of and been evolved by the socioeconomic base that produced it. but there's no "humanity" outside of those cultures and those technologies. our current notions of childhood are themselves historical, contingent, probably transitory. childhood was not childhood even 100 years ago in the way we think about it now. what we expect children to be, know and understand is in constant flux, and not in some Whiggish progress towards the best.

but nor in some progress to the worst either, i guess.

this is what makes these discussions so complex - trying to gauge progress or decline is like some gargantuan game of whack-a-mole

Most of the adults in these children's lives are never without their phones, always checking email or twitface or whatever. Indeed, you're reading this on a screen right now. If we're waiting in line we take out our phones and scroll through r/eroticfurries or swipe some stupid candies around. In many homes, TVs have been left on as background for decades. Adults are constantly talking about what meme they saw online, what movies are good, what TV shows are interesting, what video games they're obsessed with. Every bar has five TVs; there is a screen at every airplane seat; gas pumps have screens; taxis have screens; etc.

And then we turn around and get all judgy at "the kids today" for thinking screen time is highly desirable and wanting more of it. Hmmm, where do you think they got that idea?

but nor in some progress to the worst either, i guess.

nah exactly. and there are probably billions of children and adults who have more or less inarguably "better" lives than their ancestors of 3 or 4 generations back

are there any technological developments that, with the benefit of hindsight, we can say were overall bad for kids?

anything that gives them dreams or aspirations

oh, and heelies

And then we turn around and get all judgy at "the kids today" for thinking screen time is highly desirable and wanting more of it. Hmmm, where do you think they got that idea?

Definitely. But this isn't a "do what I say not what I do" scenario, I don't think. Parents are getting worried about kid screen time and simultaneously parent and non-parent adults alike are getting worried about their own use too. I've clamped down hard on how/when I use screens, especially when F is around, and when I tell other adults about it I've been pretty surprised how often they tell me some new rule they've instituted for themselves -- from "airplane mode at dinner time" to "my phone stays in the kitchen now".

One team of app developers I know who focus on kids apps have also said they're a big backlash pretty soon, and they've scaled down their plans for big new app launches. They're now trying to figure out the "post-app world", and thinking about voice and other ways we'll damage kids brains in the future.

i guess i feel like there's so much you can do on a screen that it's hard to find a blanket ban or the like.

eg i could be writing something or reading - that never feels bad. i do buy a lot of paperbacks but i always have something on my kindle so i can use my phone as a book on the tube, and there's so much good non-fiction online.

or i could be rapidly flicking from one tab to another, the time i spend in each one gradually diminishing, clicking back on a tab i just clicked on, stultified.

maybe phones are the real issue - i know when i write i often put my phone in a drawer or under a pillow or something - have tried similar for watching tv and movies.

I have no issues with my own screen use, I don’t feel like I suffer in other areas of life or am missing out on anything. I can have sufficiently rich experiences in virtual spaces as I can in non-virtual ones. So I don’t have as many concerns with my kid using them either. There are limits and moderation, she still has to eat dinner and things like that. But she’s going to have to interact with people through screens/VR/whatever for the rest of her life, I’ll try and impart what is bad/good/enriching/time wasting/quality/harmful/etc while she is young, but realize it will largely be out of my control when she reaches a certain age.

surely every parent, who is concerned for the usefulness and happiness of his child, will, with deep solicitude, watch over his reading. He will remove from his reach such books as may tend to instil false sentiments, vitiate the taste, or corrupt the morals of his beloved offspring

the arrival of the book in the 15th century -- moveable type hence mass printing hence significant broadening of vernacular literacy and self-informed debate -- was a major factor in the length and all-pervasive viciousness of the religious wars europe was very soon plunged into, for a couple of centuries (with several follow-up outbreaks)

we have always already been on this hook :(

(the "surely every parent" para shd be in quotes)

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/9/16629788/youtube-kids-distrubing-inappropriate-flag-age-restrict

well then

so distrubing

This stuff is terrifying. I've noticed how difficult it is to keep kids away from default being on ipad/being on smartphone with my nephews, and those kids are being raised by a Sport Dad

it's not difficult

speak for yourself

I am!

How do you go about it?

When I say 'difficult' I mean they'll kick off and snivel and want another ten minutes or whatever, and it all has to be talked through. They prise the ipad away eventually.

at some point with iPads it's probably a bit late to put the genie back in the bottle so to speak, so it has to start from birth. w/my example i'm pretty surprised that he has actively chosen not to engage w/TV, and i've told him to call me out if he thinks i'm on the computer or iPhone too much. he'll say something like, "is that *really* important?" and it's usually not. so i shut it down at that point. it's embarrassing, really!

Haha yes to all that. The two components afaic are 1) set a good example and 2) set limits early (and stick to them)

I've noticed how difficult it is to keep myself away from default being on ILX.

I work in front of a computer almost every hour I'm awake so unfortunately I set a terrible example, and my kid loves screens. he's almost 12 now though.

What age is this cool child, omar?

He's six ("and a half!", he'd shout)

Need a cool kid to boss me off social media tbh

Tell him your imaginary internet friends have a lot of respect for his lifestyle choices. Right on, kid!

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/9/16629788/youtube-kids-distrubing-inappropriate-flag-age-restrict

there. it's over

“We’re in the process of implementing a new policy that age restricts this content in the YouTube main app when flagged,” said Juniper Downs, YouTube’s director of policy. “Age-restricted content is automatically not allowed in YouTube Kids.” YouTube says that it’s been formulating this new policy for a while, and that it’s not rolling it out in direct response to the recent coverage.

The first line of defense for YouTube Kids are algorithmic filters. After that, there is a team of humans that review videos which have been flagged. If a video with recognizable children’s characters gets flagged in YouTube’s main app, which is much larger than the Kids app, it will be sent to the policy review team. YouTube says it has thousands of people working around the clock in different time zones to review flagged content. If the review finds the video is in violation of the new policy, it will be age restrictied, automatically blocking it from showing up in the Kids app.

YouTube says it typically takes at least a few days for content to make its way from YouTube proper to YouTube Kids, and the hope is that within that window, users will flag anything potentially disturbing to children. YouTube also has a team of volunteer moderators, which it calls Contributors, looking for inappropriate content. YouTube says it will start training its review team on the new policy and it should be live within a few weeks.

Along with filtering content out of the Kids app, the new policy will also tweak who can see these videos on YouTube’s main service. Flagged content will be age restricted, and users won’t be able to see those videos if they’re not logged in on accounts registered to users 18 years or older. All age-gated content is also automatically exempt from advertising. That means this new policy could put a squeeze on the booming business of crafting strange kid’s content.

tbh i'm kind of shocked that most of this shit wasn't already removed for copyright violations

I just want to add that the stuff I wrote about poor parents was not "concern trolling" but meant as a pre-emptive measure agains all the kool-aid men and kool-aid women ready to swoop in and just say "people should be better parents" like that's something everyone has equal ease and ability to do

it would concern trolling. it's cool, i mean it was entertaining but gmafb you don't know fuck about single poor moms and parenting as was clear from the fact that you thought they needed to let their kids watch youtube on their ipads bc they didn't have better options available.

was*

i mean maybe you don't know this but a large % of what you say sounds extraordinarily disingenuous.

like was complaining about racist cyclists (or was it racist motorists) also not concern trolling?

Mordy, expound on these better options?

the free PBS app on the same ipad

shut the fuck up, Mordy, who gives a shit

― "the fgti incident?" (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, November 10, 2017 12:52 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

concern troll better maybe? idk what other advise to give you.

Mordy is otm here imo

the whole "poor single moms with ipads who don't know how to monitor their usage" conception was p suspect. and I know whiney's steez is hyperbolic compression of a bunch of different cultural signifiers/buzzwords but ... often that doesn't bear any resemblance to reality.

my wife lets our 4yo son watch NatGeo videos on her phone in certain situations (when she has to have him along on a dr. appt for her, or when we were trying to potty train him/convincing him of the necessity of sitting on the toilet for awhile, or when he's on a long planeflight), it really isn't hard to set boundaries with devices either in terms of when they have access to them or in terms of what they watch, I don't think that's a class/time/resources issue.

Rich people can be sucky parents too, I can happily confirm firsthand.

some of the worst parenting I've ever seen has been from rich parents, no doubt

yeah I mean maybe instead of looking at class/income etc. we could identify the problem here as "parents who DNGAF" oh wait I'm bleeding into the "Judging" thread again :)

the iPad parents i referenced upthread are probably the wealthiest people i know