LOL
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:09 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
if you don't understand what i'm saying theres no need to be a dick about it
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:12 (six years ago) link
what happens if u introduce six different "types" of toys & let boys & girls shake out the results
idk what to tell you i looked at the public school option and the option we went with and the entire program was more cutting-edge than the public school. that's an explicit part of their appeal that they rely upon to attract students. xxp
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:13 (six years ago) link
it's a student:teacher ratio of 1:10. is there a public school that can give that kind of individuated attention?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:14 (six years ago) link
Yeah any of the three I’ve worked in!
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:16 (six years ago) link
i admit i'm surprised. that's not the ratio at the public schools here and we're far from under-resourced.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:18 (six years ago) link
i guess i'm not a parent but i feel like deej has been otm here
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:18 (six years ago) link
I’m not saying you’re wrong on the whole, but I want you to recognize that (many) public schools are hugely innovative... especially considering the quality of education provided for an increasingly high number of special education students.
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:18 (six years ago) link
ok that's fair. it seemed like the better choice for us, partially bc we have one child who is an unconventional learner. i do know parents who for various reasons (like having more resources for special ed students) have opted for the local schools. and like i said - they're very good. i was really replying to scott's assertion above that while i like unconventional classrooms that kind of thing isn't an option for most people.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:20 (six years ago) link
I only brought up the parent thing because many of us were discussing our anecdotal evidence. Which is generally preferable to D-40's standard evidence-free hypotheses.
Xps
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:21 (six years ago) link
(And instructional assistants/non-certified teachers/support personnel are NOT considered in the public school student/teacher ratio for public systems, whereas anybody who considers themselves to have any instructional duties can boost the numbers for independents/charters.)
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:21 (six years ago) link
interesting. good to know.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
Let’s cuddle this out.
― Jeff, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
U know u always my boo, Mordy! <- man bonding
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
public schools killed my sister
― map, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
i didn't weigh in on the cuddling thing but i'm a big no for male cuddling [for me - i have no judgement about other ppl enjoying male bonding cuddles]
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:23 (six years ago) link
idk we've been pretty disappointed at how our highly-rated school districted has handled our son w/ autism, most of the schools doing the best work w/ special needs kids (or at least kids w/ autism, adhd, and similar conditions) in our city are all private. i always vowed i'd send my kid to public schools but seeing the difference between even the best public school districts in our city and the private schools that specialize in supporting kids w/ autism has made us reconsider. part of this could be ohio's "autism scholarship" program which routes money to individual families to select the school/providers of their choice but not if they choose the public school (in effect resources are routed to private providers rather than the public system). it sucks really but as a parent im not really hesitating to take the $$ for the best situation for my son
tangent obv but anyways
― marcos, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:24 (six years ago) link
You're on a msg board Mordy. You don't *actually* have to cuddle when someone says cuddle.
― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:25 (six years ago) link
Without comment on the rest of the study results, reducing that monkey toy study to "cars" and "dolls" will not help anyone understand the results -- per Mordy's link:
Because we hypothesized that some aspects of sexually differentiated toy preferences reflect activity preferences, we categorized our toys not by traditional gender assignment, but by specific object properties that made our categories comparable, though not exact matches, to stereotypical gender assignments. Thus one set of toys was “wheeled,” most comparable to the masculine vehicle toys and the other was “plush,” most comparable to the feminine doll and stuffed animal toys. The seven plush toys were: Winnie-the-Pooh™, Raggedy-Ann™, a koala bear hand puppet, an armadillo, a teddy bear, Scooby-Doo™, and a turtle. The sizes ranged in length from about 14 cm to 73 cm. The six wheeled toys were: a wagon, a truck, a car, a construction vehicle, a shopping cart, and a dump truck. These ranged in length from 16 to 46 cm. Plush and wheeled toys varied considerably in shape and color as well.
That paints a different and more interesting picture than just "cars" and "dolls."
(Yeah, I'd also like to see what would happen if traditionally "neutral" toys were included as well, but that's not what the researchers were studying.)
― Monster fatberg (Phil D.), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:25 (six years ago) link
then who's this guy who keeps wrapping his arms around me i assumed it was one of you
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:27 (six years ago) link
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:21 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
my very first post included my own anecdotal evidence
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:28 (six years ago) link
"that while i like unconventional classrooms that kind of thing isn't an option for most people."
and, also, my kids go to one of those dreaded.............PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS.
a real hot button topic around these parts. i stay out of it.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:28 (six years ago) link
― Mordy, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 8:27 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
haha <3
― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:29 (six years ago) link
― Monster fatberg (Phil D.), Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:25 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i dont mean neutral (what is a neutral toy? One that doesn't assume a gender binary going into it?)
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:30 (six years ago) link
Didnt realize you had observed the development of yr siblings' gender identity since birth, must be quite an age gap.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:33 (six years ago) link
you're clearly arguing just to argue
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:35 (six years ago) link
I mean basically the way I see it is that the rough groupings of "male" and "female" are not just, like, completely made up, and that there are probably some clusters of biological traits that in turn have some cluster of influences on behavior, taste, etc. But also the range and variety within those groupings is much broader than we have often allowed, and social pressure has tended to cause a narrowing of what would otherwise be wider. E.g. men who really aren't all that excited about trucks going with the flow and pretending like they are excited about trucks, or guys that might never independently develop an interest in NFL forcing themselves to have some kind of knowledge of NFL. And I think there's probably a lot of overlap between that kind of pressure and what we call "toxic masculinity."
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:38 (six years ago) link
Also, relatedly, the specific *ways* in which certain traits, e.g. aggression, are allowed and not allowed to express themselves is very much a social thing, for example, whether the strong picking on the weak is tolerated, encouraged, or discouraged.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:39 (six years ago) link
The only way to objectively study birth order is to have a batch of children, raise them, then kill them and have another batch.
― Careful with that Ax, Emanuel (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:44 (six years ago) link
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:33 (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I made this actual response about an hour before everyone jumped on d40 ppl are being unfair imo and this is a good thread today can we chill and just be chill guys
― Gary Synaesthesia (darraghmac), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:47 (six years ago) link
It would be pretty funny/ironic/fitting if the maleness thread devolves into Lord of the Flies
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:52 (six years ago) link
says *man alive*
― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:52 (six years ago) link
my POV on the "has anti-gender essentialism gone too far" thing is basically I'm sure we've all observed "progressive parents" trying to bring up their children in some kind of blandly gender neutral existence & their efforts often seem ignorant of the depth & power of gender roles w/in that society; and that they neglect to recognize that 'society' extends beyond their household, and that they themselves reinforce those same norms 1000 times daily for every 1000 times they think to do otherwise. in that sense, i can see critiquing the new intelligentsia consensus, but i think the problem isn't that theyve gone too far, its that they dont realize how far they (and everyone around them) really have to go (or for that matter, that we can't really "unlearn" this stuff, we can only pile more discourse on top of it)
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:56 (six years ago) link
II think that the ability to pooh-pooh physiologically-based gender differences is actually the very definition of male privilege. Beyond fine/gross motor development, differing functioning of the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, or (say) onset of sexual maturity, there are lots of socialized gender-experiences that the direct result of biological phenomena. Young men can opt out – almost entirely – from the icky conversations of maturation, and many of them literally never have to discuss/see/engage with menstruation for an entire lifetime, whereas it's a biological imperative for young (cis) women. That difference alone, magnified over a lifetime, is enormous, and while the expression of these differences plays out in social learning, the root of it is in sexual dimorphism.
― remy bean, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:04 (six years ago) link
"progressive parents" trying to bring up their children in some kind of blandly gender neutral existence & their efforts often seem ignorant of the depth & power of gender roles w/in that society
I can't remember if we did this point already, but in vein of how it's necessary to UNDO patriarchy and not just ignore it or pretend you can shut it out, this problem is somewhat similar to the many studies and discussions about how ineffective it is to try to make kids "color-blind" instead of purposefully studying the violence of racism. You have to grapple w it and teach it and teach strategies for not bending to the social pressures. You don't just say "Girls can like trucks too," one time and that's it, you have to live the message, however that looks in your family with gender roles and stuff. And like if there's that one relative or older friend who always tells your daughter she looks "pretty" and must be "such a good girl," you have to talk about that w your daughter and parse it out. Ditto whatever messages for boys. Invite your kids to examine stuff--you already know how smart they are!
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:08 (six years ago) link
epically OTM post, in orbit
― Careful with that Ax, Emanuel (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:12 (six years ago) link
art of this could be ohio's "autism scholarship" program which routes money to individual families to select the school/providers of their choice but not if they choose the public school (in effect resources are routed to private providers rather than the public system).
This is utterly and completely evil.
At my (public) middle school we have a "NEST" program, which mainstreams high-functioning autistic kids into regular honors classes with extra training for the staff, a higher faculty-to-student ratio, and some environmental adaptations to accommodate the NEST kids (quiet rooms, specially structured lessons, a calm and predictable schedule, minimal classroom travel, etc). It's wildly successful, for instance one student DOUBLED her test scores from the previous year. And these are hyper-involved parents, not kids who "fell through the cracks" or whatever. Public schools can do it. But like LITERALLY ANYTHING GOOD, it isn't free. It requires funding.
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:14 (six years ago) link
I was literally JUST unpacking some of this stuff with my daughter (see children's programming thread) and she said things that were way more sophisticated than anything I could have come up with at twice her age.
― Careful with that Ax, Emanuel (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:14 (six years ago) link
io, you may be unsurprised to know I brought up colorblindness as an analogy about a week ago :-) obv I think you are OTM
― the Hannah Montana of the Korean War (DJP), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:15 (six years ago) link
you don't just say "Girls can like trucks too," one time and that's it, you have to live the message, however that looks in your family with gender roles and stuff.
Yeah! This is so true –– and it's not just the conversations about gender/race/sexuality/economics/religion. It's the act of having the conversation, itself. I try to have these conversations every day with students, and often the most profound discussion happens around 'hidden' biases and powers that kids'll bring up that are (basically) invisible to me. Last week, kids brought up the tyranny of 'nice' teachers who like 'niceness' and the way in which niceness is adjudicated based on pleasant appearance, lack of obvious disability, youth, and compliance. Only because of fifty million previous conversations did they even think to bring it up, and it struck me as a triumph that they'd question something I'd been ignoring/misunderstanding my entire life.
― remy bean, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:17 (six years ago) link
Yay Dan! Happy to be otm w you.
Kids are always looking through the cracks in the grown-up world, because the compromises we've learned along the way are patent subterfuges to them--or at least that's what I seem to remember from being told a lot of bullshit. Personally I was obsessed with fairness, and things not being fair was like STOP THE WORLD, I HAVE DISCOVERED AN INJUSTICE. If you make kids undercover spies in a game of "Find the oppression" or however you dress it up, you'll probably have created a crack investigator.
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:25 (six years ago) link
remy, that story is so cool.
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:27 (six years ago) link
Personally I was obsessed with fairness, and things not being fair was like STOP THE WORLD, I HAVE DISCOVERED AN INJUSTICE.
haha oh man this is me, and my daughter is currently totally like this. She was complaining to us about the inherent unfairness of a class being collectively punished for the transgressions of a single student and we explained that the teacher was punishing the class collectively in an effort to apply not just her authority but peer pressure against the misbehaving student, and she was like "yeah, but what if [the student] doesn't CARE?"
I had no answer.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:40 (six years ago) link
and I remembered that this bugged the shit out of me as a kid too.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:41 (six years ago) link
24/7 oppression seeking must make for sunshiny childhoods
generally, my witness to injustice as a child resulted in snitching on everyone. this was not popular.
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:51 (six years ago) link
It certainly seems to grant adults happy and fulfilled lives.
― grawlix (unperson), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 21:59 (six years ago) link
― remy bean, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 4:04 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
“Young men can opt out from icky conversations about maturation” seems like a massive, massive overstatement
But fwiw no one is poo pooing physiological differences, were talking about the connection between gender and physiology, which has huge ramifications for I.e. trans teenagers
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 22:03 (six years ago) link
and I remembered that this bugged the shit out of me as a kid too
otm, this was so infuriating to me as a kid that I got mad just typing "otm" at the start of this sentence
― shackling the masses with plastic-wrapped snack picks (sic), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 22:14 (six years ago) link
And (the student) never cared
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 23:58 (six years ago) link
I think I saw some impressive parenting today, possibly related to maleness. What do you lot think?
I've been volunteering in a charity shop. Family comes in - mam, dad, baby girl, son of about three to five - son wants an expensive toy, can't have it. The son kicked off and was hitting his dad in the leg. The parents were standing there looking attentive, listening to his points, and making fair counterpoints ('Father Christmas will bring you one', 'You've already had a toy today', etc). But they didn't react to the anger with anger at all. Just explained in simple terms why he couldn't have it and said they needed to get on and get some fish and chips. He complied, to an extent, tried to do a staying in the shop routine but then gave up and walked out with them. I feel like the son will have learned a useful lesson there more so than if they'd got angry back at him.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Thursday, 2 November 2017 00:05 (six years ago) link