Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

one reason it might matter is bc it determines how we educate our children. if males can be socialized to learn the same way females are then we should just do that but if they aren't we need to make adjustments to the current sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day regime. xp

why insanity isn't an equal opportunity employer

Disabilities aren't either; almost all of my son's special-needsy world is boys. Autism, ADHD, speech delays, cerebral palsy, Angelman syndrome, fragile X. Boys boys boys boys. We know of like two girls in special education, both apparently with Down Syndrome.

My go joes were like dolls

xp I'm guessing that has something to do with this:

The X-chromosome has played a crucial role in the development of sexually selected characteristics for over 300 million years. During that time it has accumulated a disproportionate number of genes concerned with mental functions. For reasons that are not yet understood, there is an excess proportion of genes on the X-chromosome that are associated with the development of intelligence, with no obvious links to other significant biological functions.[22][23] There has also been interest in the possibility that haploinsufficiency for one or more X-linked genes has a specific impact on development of the Amygdala and its connections with cortical centres involved in social–cognition processing or the ‘social brain'.[22][24]

I think if we're going to vary how we educate our children it doesn't make sense for gender to be the determining factor given how much variation there is within them

Although now I'm thinking of my friends whose daughter has Rett Syndrome and that seems to appear disproportionately in girls despite also being on the X chromosome.

xp also I don't think socialisation at that depth is within the control of the govt/education system

"we should just do that but if they aren't we need to make adjustments to the current sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day regime."

my 12 year old boy spent the entire school day yesterday biking 17 miles with his class. and they tied in science, math, etc to the trip. that's the newfangled way.

like i said, i don't think biology doesn't matter, that's an absurd position. i just think society still has a much more overdetermined notion of how tenuous gendered ideas & biology really are; that pink was the color for boys & blue a color for girls 100 years ago, for ex

Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences.

maybe i'm missing something, but this gives away the game. The study is set up as if there were two genders, when in fact women show "greater variability in preference," not a preference for female toys. whereas males tended to be drawn to the "male" toys. Built into the study is a gender binary which assumes there can only be two kinds of toys, an assumption that monkeys will fit into one of two groups. these two groups only exist bc of the boundaries of the study, which presumes two possible answers going in. maybe im missing something but it feels like the deck is stacked?

i don't understand what is confusing you. in that study the boy monkeys preferred to play with wheeled toys and the female monkeys played with wheeled toys and with dolls.

Phil, my son's condition (a vanishingly rare KDM5C mutation) is x-linked and overwhelmingly hits males. Females are carriers but usually only have mild effects, if any.

my 12 year old boy spent the entire school day yesterday biking 17 miles with his class. and they tied in science, math, etc to the trip. that's the newfangled way.

this is a big reason why we have our kids in private school - we felt they'd cater to their learning needs better w/ smaller classes, more inventive pedagogy, etc. (the other big reason is religious.) the public schools here are great - nationally acclaimed - but they are basically sitting a desk all day. unfortunately most ppl don't have the luxury of choosing.

one reason it might matter is bc it determines how we educate our children. if males can be socialized to learn the same way females are then we should just do that but if they aren't we need to make adjustments to the current sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day regime. xp

― Mordy, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 2:56 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fwiw i dont think we even disagree about this, but i'm not sure why it would matter if its biological or socially determined; if men are struggling to sit in a chair x hours a day more than women bc they've been allowed to run wild vs. they're driven to run wild, it still has to be dealt with. the socialized reality isn't something that can just be undone with progressive parenting or whatever, its a deep societal thing regardless

ah, right, the x-chromosome. i knew that. i think that's the thing responsible for my response when i learned about trepanning: huh, that makes sense! let some air in.

i honestly believe that's what makes the idea of a gunshot to the head so appealing to so many men. relieves the pressure.

thread has taken a dark turn

these two groups only exist bc of the boundaries of the study

LOL

Not to derail, but this is a condescending, reductive and inaccurate statement:

this is a big reason why we have our kids in private school - we felt they'd cater to their learning needs better w/ smaller classes, more inventive pedagogy, etc. (the other big reason is religious.) the public schools here are great - nationally acclaimed - but they are basically sitting a desk all day. unfortunately most ppl don't have the luxury of choosing.

I’ve been vocal about school types before, and I have NEVER been in a private school whose pedagogy is more cutting-edge than some of the most under-resourced publics I’ve taught in.

LOL

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:09 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

if you don't understand what i'm saying theres no need to be a dick about it

what happens if u introduce six different "types" of toys & let boys & girls shake out the results

idk what to tell you i looked at the public school option and the option we went with and the entire program was more cutting-edge than the public school. that's an explicit part of their appeal that they rely upon to attract students. xxp

it's a student:teacher ratio of 1:10. is there a public school that can give that kind of individuated attention?

Yeah any of the three I’ve worked in!

i admit i'm surprised. that's not the ratio at the public schools here and we're far from under-resourced.

i guess i'm not a parent but i feel like deej has been otm here

I’m not saying you’re wrong on the whole, but I want you to recognize that (many) public schools are hugely innovative... especially considering the quality of education provided for an increasingly high number of special education students.

ok that's fair. it seemed like the better choice for us, partially bc we have one child who is an unconventional learner. i do know parents who for various reasons (like having more resources for special ed students) have opted for the local schools. and like i said - they're very good. i was really replying to scott's assertion above that while i like unconventional classrooms that kind of thing isn't an option for most people.

I only brought up the parent thing because many of us were discussing our anecdotal evidence. Which is generally preferable to D-40's standard evidence-free hypotheses.

Xps

(And instructional assistants/non-certified teachers/support personnel are NOT considered in the public school student/teacher ratio for public systems, whereas anybody who considers themselves to have any instructional duties can boost the numbers for independents/charters.)

interesting. good to know.

Let’s cuddle this out.

U know u always my boo, Mordy! <- man bonding

public schools killed my sister

i didn't weigh in on the cuddling thing but i'm a big no for male cuddling [for me - i have no judgement about other ppl enjoying male bonding cuddles]

idk we've been pretty disappointed at how our highly-rated school districted has handled our son w/ autism, most of the schools doing the best work w/ special needs kids (or at least kids w/ autism, adhd, and similar conditions) in our city are all private. i always vowed i'd send my kid to public schools but seeing the difference between even the best public school districts in our city and the private schools that specialize in supporting kids w/ autism has made us reconsider. part of this could be ohio's "autism scholarship" program which routes money to individual families to select the school/providers of their choice but not if they choose the public school (in effect resources are routed to private providers rather than the public system). it sucks really but as a parent im not really hesitating to take the $$ for the best situation for my son

tangent obv but anyways

You're on a msg board Mordy. You don't *actually* have to cuddle when someone says cuddle.

Without comment on the rest of the study results, reducing that monkey toy study to "cars" and "dolls" will not help anyone understand the results -- per Mordy's link:

Because we hypothesized that some aspects of sexually differentiated toy preferences reflect activity preferences, we categorized our toys not by traditional gender assignment, but by specific object properties that made our categories comparable, though not exact matches, to stereotypical gender assignments. Thus one set of toys was “wheeled,” most comparable to the masculine vehicle toys and the other was “plush,” most comparable to the feminine doll and stuffed animal toys. The seven plush toys were: Winnie-the-Pooh™, Raggedy-Ann™, a koala bear hand puppet, an armadillo, a teddy bear, Scooby-Doo™, and a turtle. The sizes ranged in length from about 14 cm to 73 cm. The six wheeled toys were: a wagon, a truck, a car, a construction vehicle, a shopping cart, and a dump truck. These ranged in length from 16 to 46 cm. Plush and wheeled toys varied considerably in shape and color as well.

That paints a different and more interesting picture than just "cars" and "dolls."

(Yeah, I'd also like to see what would happen if traditionally "neutral" toys were included as well, but that's not what the researchers were studying.)

You're on a msg board Mordy. You don't *actually* have to cuddle when someone says cuddle.

then who's this guy who keeps wrapping his arms around me i assumed it was one of you

I only brought up the parent thing because many of us were discussing our anecdotal evidence. Which is generally preferable to D-40's standard evidence-free hypotheses.

Xps

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:21 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my very first post included my own anecdotal evidence

"that while i like unconventional classrooms that kind of thing isn't an option for most people."

and, also, my kids go to one of those dreaded.............PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS.

a real hot button topic around these parts. i stay out of it.

then who's this guy who keeps wrapping his arms around me i assumed it was one of you

― Mordy, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 8:27 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha <3

(Yeah, I'd also like to see what would happen if traditionally "neutral" toys were included as well, but that's not what the researchers were studying.)

― Monster fatberg (Phil D.), Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:25 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i dont mean neutral (what is a neutral toy? One that doesn't assume a gender binary going into it?)

my very first post included my own anecdotal evidence

Didnt realize you had observed the development of yr siblings' gender identity since birth, must be quite an age gap.

you're clearly arguing just to argue

I mean basically the way I see it is that the rough groupings of "male" and "female" are not just, like, completely made up, and that there are probably some clusters of biological traits that in turn have some cluster of influences on behavior, taste, etc. But also the range and variety within those groupings is much broader than we have often allowed, and social pressure has tended to cause a narrowing of what would otherwise be wider. E.g. men who really aren't all that excited about trucks going with the flow and pretending like they are excited about trucks, or guys that might never independently develop an interest in NFL forcing themselves to have some kind of knowledge of NFL. And I think there's probably a lot of overlap between that kind of pressure and what we call "toxic masculinity."

Also, relatedly, the specific *ways* in which certain traits, e.g. aggression, are allowed and not allowed to express themselves is very much a social thing, for example, whether the strong picking on the weak is tolerated, encouraged, or discouraged.

The only way to objectively study birth order is to have a batch of children, raise them, then kill them and have another batch.

my very first post included my own anecdotal evidence

Didnt realize you had observed the development of yr siblings' gender identity since birth, must be quite an age gap.

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:33 (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I made this actual response about an hour before everyone jumped on d40 ppl are being unfair imo and this is a good thread today can we chill and just be chill guys

It would be pretty funny/ironic/fitting if the maleness thread devolves into Lord of the Flies

says *man alive*