i wonder if you're smart enough to figure it out without it being spelled out for you
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:46 (six years ago) link
Narrator: he was not
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:46 (six years ago) link
Err, I've not seen Mindhunter and this is just an aside, but Dahmer's mother tried to kill herself when he was young, very needy attention wise, and young Dahmer didn't get a lot attention as a result. Not to excuse him, but portraying it as "he grew up in a loving family" is a bit of a stretch. But that probably goes for most.
xxxp to scott
― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:48 (six years ago) link
isnt this the kind of dick measuring this thread is suppoesd to be dismantling? or is mordy leaning on his biological inclination to dick measuring
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:48 (six years ago) link
oh cool here we go
― marcos, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:49 (six years ago) link
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/
this one shows that male rhesus monkeys prefer cars and female rhesus monkeys don't have a preference. there's another study about vervet monkeys where the females preferred dolls and the males preferred cars. this suggests to me that there's a biological component or that the monkeys are socializing gender.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:50 (six years ago) link
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/
Now new research suggests that such gender-driven desires are also seen in young female chimpanzees in the wild—a behavior that possibly evolved to make the animals better mothers, experts say.Young females of the Kanyawara chimpanzee community in Kibale National Park, Uganda, use sticks as rudimentary dolls and care for them like the group's mother chimps tend to their real offspring. The behavior, which was very rarely observed in males, has been witnessed more than a hundred times over 14 years of study.
Young females of the Kanyawara chimpanzee community in Kibale National Park, Uganda, use sticks as rudimentary dolls and care for them like the group's mother chimps tend to their real offspring. The behavior, which was very rarely observed in males, has been witnessed more than a hundred times over 14 years of study.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:51 (six years ago) link
I'm not one to pass over a legit whaling on d40 but wtf has he said wrong now that is so objectionable?
― Gary Synaesthesia (darraghmac), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:52 (six years ago) link
like i said - we can rise above this stuff but there's a difference between aspirational gender discourse and the pretense that all gender is socially constructed
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:52 (six years ago) link
"but i dont really buy anything but the loosest connections between gender & behavior"
i guess i really do buy the connections. the best case scenario for me is just nothing being a big deal as far as gender goes. which is why i dream of a world where the co-ed shower scene in starship troopers is a no big deal reality.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:54 (six years ago) link
first we just bind ourselves together in a fascist war-state
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:55 (six years ago) link
Me too Scott me too
― Gary Synaesthesia (darraghmac), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:55 (six years ago) link
why wouldn't apes complex social relations affect their development
but anyway i don't see why this issue matters either way
― ogmor, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:55 (six years ago) link
i suspect there's something inherently aggressive about the action of driving that might be more attractive to men? just the idea of moving this massive thing forward and getting a rush off that.
men much more likely to make unnecessarily sharp or aggressive moves when they want to make a point to another driver. and men sure love those sharp 90 degree turns!
― drejelire, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:56 (six years ago) link
one reason it might matter is bc it determines how we educate our children. if males can be socialized to learn the same way females are then we should just do that but if they aren't we need to make adjustments to the current sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day regime. xp
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:56 (six years ago) link
why insanity isn't an equal opportunity employer
Disabilities aren't either; almost all of my son's special-needsy world is boys. Autism, ADHD, speech delays, cerebral palsy, Angelman syndrome, fragile X. Boys boys boys boys. We know of like two girls in special education, both apparently with Down Syndrome.
― Careful with that Ax, Emanuel (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:56 (six years ago) link
My go joes were like dolls
― Dean of the University (Latham Green), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 19:57 (six years ago) link
xp I'm guessing that has something to do with this:
The X-chromosome has played a crucial role in the development of sexually selected characteristics for over 300 million years. During that time it has accumulated a disproportionate number of genes concerned with mental functions. For reasons that are not yet understood, there is an excess proportion of genes on the X-chromosome that are associated with the development of intelligence, with no obvious links to other significant biological functions.[22][23] There has also been interest in the possibility that haploinsufficiency for one or more X-linked genes has a specific impact on development of the Amygdala and its connections with cortical centres involved in social–cognition processing or the ‘social brain'.[22][24]
― Monster fatberg (Phil D.), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:01 (six years ago) link
I think if we're going to vary how we educate our children it doesn't make sense for gender to be the determining factor given how much variation there is within them
― ogmor, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:02 (six years ago) link
Although now I'm thinking of my friends whose daughter has Rett Syndrome and that seems to appear disproportionately in girls despite also being on the X chromosome.
― Monster fatberg (Phil D.), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:02 (six years ago) link
xp also I don't think socialisation at that depth is within the control of the govt/education system
― ogmor, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:03 (six years ago) link
"we should just do that but if they aren't we need to make adjustments to the current sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day regime."
my 12 year old boy spent the entire school day yesterday biking 17 miles with his class. and they tied in science, math, etc to the trip. that's the newfangled way.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:03 (six years ago) link
like i said, i don't think biology doesn't matter, that's an absurd position. i just think society still has a much more overdetermined notion of how tenuous gendered ideas & biology really are; that pink was the color for boys & blue a color for girls 100 years ago, for ex
Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences.
maybe i'm missing something, but this gives away the game. The study is set up as if there were two genders, when in fact women show "greater variability in preference," not a preference for female toys. whereas males tended to be drawn to the "male" toys. Built into the study is a gender binary which assumes there can only be two kinds of toys, an assumption that monkeys will fit into one of two groups. these two groups only exist bc of the boundaries of the study, which presumes two possible answers going in. maybe im missing something but it feels like the deck is stacked?
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:05 (six years ago) link
i don't understand what is confusing you. in that study the boy monkeys preferred to play with wheeled toys and the female monkeys played with wheeled toys and with dolls.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:06 (six years ago) link
Phil, my son's condition (a vanishingly rare KDM5C mutation) is x-linked and overwhelmingly hits males. Females are carriers but usually only have mild effects, if any.
― Careful with that Ax, Emanuel (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:07 (six years ago) link
this is a big reason why we have our kids in private school - we felt they'd cater to their learning needs better w/ smaller classes, more inventive pedagogy, etc. (the other big reason is religious.) the public schools here are great - nationally acclaimed - but they are basically sitting a desk all day. unfortunately most ppl don't have the luxury of choosing.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:08 (six years ago) link
― Mordy, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 2:56 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
fwiw i dont think we even disagree about this, but i'm not sure why it would matter if its biological or socially determined; if men are struggling to sit in a chair x hours a day more than women bc they've been allowed to run wild vs. they're driven to run wild, it still has to be dealt with. the socialized reality isn't something that can just be undone with progressive parenting or whatever, its a deep societal thing regardless
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:08 (six years ago) link
ah, right, the x-chromosome. i knew that. i think that's the thing responsible for my response when i learned about trepanning: huh, that makes sense! let some air in.
i honestly believe that's what makes the idea of a gunshot to the head so appealing to so many men. relieves the pressure.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:09 (six years ago) link
thread has taken a dark turn
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:09 (six years ago) link
these two groups only exist bc of the boundaries of the study
LOL
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:09 (six years ago) link
Not to derail, but this is a condescending, reductive and inaccurate statement:this is a big reason why we have our kids in private school - we felt they'd cater to their learning needs better w/ smaller classes, more inventive pedagogy, etc. (the other big reason is religious.) the public schools here are great - nationally acclaimed - but they are basically sitting a desk all day. unfortunately most ppl don't have the luxury of choosing.
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:10 (six years ago) link
I’ve been vocal about school types before, and I have NEVER been in a private school whose pedagogy is more cutting-edge than some of the most under-resourced publics I’ve taught in.
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:12 (six years ago) link
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:09 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
if you don't understand what i'm saying theres no need to be a dick about it
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:12 (six years ago) link
what happens if u introduce six different "types" of toys & let boys & girls shake out the results
idk what to tell you i looked at the public school option and the option we went with and the entire program was more cutting-edge than the public school. that's an explicit part of their appeal that they rely upon to attract students. xxp
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:13 (six years ago) link
it's a student:teacher ratio of 1:10. is there a public school that can give that kind of individuated attention?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:14 (six years ago) link
Yeah any of the three I’ve worked in!
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:16 (six years ago) link
i admit i'm surprised. that's not the ratio at the public schools here and we're far from under-resourced.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:18 (six years ago) link
i guess i'm not a parent but i feel like deej has been otm here
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:18 (six years ago) link
I’m not saying you’re wrong on the whole, but I want you to recognize that (many) public schools are hugely innovative... especially considering the quality of education provided for an increasingly high number of special education students.
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:18 (six years ago) link
ok that's fair. it seemed like the better choice for us, partially bc we have one child who is an unconventional learner. i do know parents who for various reasons (like having more resources for special ed students) have opted for the local schools. and like i said - they're very good. i was really replying to scott's assertion above that while i like unconventional classrooms that kind of thing isn't an option for most people.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:20 (six years ago) link
I only brought up the parent thing because many of us were discussing our anecdotal evidence. Which is generally preferable to D-40's standard evidence-free hypotheses.
Xps
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:21 (six years ago) link
(And instructional assistants/non-certified teachers/support personnel are NOT considered in the public school student/teacher ratio for public systems, whereas anybody who considers themselves to have any instructional duties can boost the numbers for independents/charters.)
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:21 (six years ago) link
interesting. good to know.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
Let’s cuddle this out.
― Jeff, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
U know u always my boo, Mordy! <- man bonding
― rb (soda), Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
public schools killed my sister
― map, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
i didn't weigh in on the cuddling thing but i'm a big no for male cuddling [for me - i have no judgement about other ppl enjoying male bonding cuddles]
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:23 (six years ago) link
idk we've been pretty disappointed at how our highly-rated school districted has handled our son w/ autism, most of the schools doing the best work w/ special needs kids (or at least kids w/ autism, adhd, and similar conditions) in our city are all private. i always vowed i'd send my kid to public schools but seeing the difference between even the best public school districts in our city and the private schools that specialize in supporting kids w/ autism has made us reconsider. part of this could be ohio's "autism scholarship" program which routes money to individual families to select the school/providers of their choice but not if they choose the public school (in effect resources are routed to private providers rather than the public system). it sucks really but as a parent im not really hesitating to take the $$ for the best situation for my son
tangent obv but anyways
― marcos, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:24 (six years ago) link
You're on a msg board Mordy. You don't *actually* have to cuddle when someone says cuddle.
― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:25 (six years ago) link