Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

I go every 4-6 weeks.

Twice a year barbershop (good Iranian who set up shop around here), twice a year diy maintenance.

Hi! I am in a classroom all day pretty much every day, and I want to co-sign a few of the thoughts YMP and others had. As much as we’re in an era of dismantling gender essentialism, there are developmental/socialized/hormonal tendencies that make the cis-male and cis-female experience really, really different in school. Depending on the outside culture/school/student/teacher, these differences can be hugely over- or under-stated, but they’re always there, and they’re profound in their effects.

All the barbershops around me are staffed overwhelmingly by Vietnamese women. I haven't had my hair cut by a Max or Sam or a Tony since I was in high school.

Interestingly, these are exactly the same barbershops as I went to in my childhood. They look and smell exactly the same; same stuff on the walls; same gumball machine; same magazines.

I prefer it this way, because Max/Sam/Tony wanted to talk about sports (which I couldn't do then and still can't).

my barber (amazonian, non-binary, leprous, made of figs) has this really amazing aftershave i can't get enough of

I had an old-school barber in North Beach that I went to for a long time, older latino guy from my neighborhood, he was great but he had to shut his shop and the last few times I went to a barber shop is what at this *super* old school place in the financial District, which looked and smelled like old bankers from WWII, w the occasional chain-smoking-in-a-scarf gay barber. I kinda loved it tbh. But it was pricey.

All the barber shops around me seem to be run by russian or central asian (e.g. uzbeki) jews.

Codelia Fine's The Gender Delusion is a good book about how difficult (impossible?) it is to establish hormonal factors outside of socialization.

sure it could be that by 4yo boys are already socialized to roughhouse and girls are socialized to be more attentive

You say that like it's far-fetched but I think it's pretty clear a four year old is already going to be influenced by a ton of socialization! Not exclusively pertaining to gendered behaviour, either, just in general.

The starry-eyed crunchy hippie parents who only give their children ethically-sourced gluten-free unisex toys still see loads of stereotypically gendered behavior.

These hippie parents don't live in a vacuum, though (well, I suppose some might be sufficiently off the grid, but then where would they get the toys?); parents aren't the only factor influencing kids.

scott my parents had a copy of the territorial imperative -- it had an exciting-looking dust-jacket

i asked my dad once if it was any good, he said "not very"

https://pictures.abebooks.com/isbn/9780689100154-us-300.jpg

i like to cut my own hair with a clippers in the mirror and pretend i'm getting ready to pull off one last mission

There’s a raging debate about “pre-academic” kindergartens, and specifically about the danger of reducing free-play time (which favors no gender) in favor of guided skills or “building block” skills which often favor students with more-developed fine motor skills and greater socialization (read: girls) over boy-rambunctiousness.

my son is currently in the former and let me tell you, there is a lot of boy-rambunctiousness

(by which I mean a pre-academic preschool/kindergarten program for 3-5 year olds that is p much all free-play time)

Where I live, kindergarteners are expected to read and write. Preschools are expected to get them ready for this reality.

When I was a kid the goals were like "not eating paste." Offa my lawn etc.

"it had an exciting-looking dust-jacket"

the jackets and the type and the illustrations inside are what made me buy them. they are very handsome books. and there is a lot of interesting info in them that i never knew. facts and stuff. good stories. he was a good storyteller. i just don't know how they are viewed today. i'm no expert. he apparently influenced The Naked Ape and books like that in the 70's. so he did have a pretty big cultural influence. and he influenced Kubrick's 2001 and Clockwork Orange apparently.

i imagine it would be gathered in under ev psych now, all the problems that entails (in fact that may be why my dad didn't think much of it): quasi-darwinian just-so stories to back up what you thought or hoped people shd be like (in this instance psychotically aggressive)

mum and dad also had a book which proved that humans had been aquatic mammals for a while after they stopped being apes, and that's why we have curly public hair under our arms (sadly i don't recall its title)

hese hippie parents don't live in a vacuum, though (well, I suppose some might be sufficiently off the grid, but then where would they get the toys?); parents aren't the only factor influencing kids.

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 1:10 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This argument was more salient to me before I had kids and saw how much difference there was between my two daughters even before age 2, respectively. Not that much socialization occurring pre-2.

Didn't you have siblings of whom you could've made the same observation tho man alive

(fwiw, I think sibling order irlf birth is a massive input into personality either way tbh)

yeah seeing how much personality traits become evident really early on was eye-opening as a parent

xp

"quasi-darwinian just-so stories to back up what you thought or hoped people shd be like (in this instance psychotically aggressive)"

there is a part in the African book where he mentions that humans likely evolved from a species of ape now extinct who were very violent and who invented weapons and that we did not come from the peace and love vegetarian primates and i had no idea if it was true but i wanted to believe it because Trump.

w/parenting and masculinity, it goes w/o saying that there are parents (and not just dads!) who will allow or sometimes implicitly encourage some of the less-decent aspects of masculine behavior bc they don't want their sons to be soft. my son had a friend whose behavior was horrible and never checked by his dad, it was usually dismissed as a boys-will-be-boys thing. up to and including the last time we saw him at this kid's birthday party, when they were in a bounce house together and the kid grabbed my son by the neck and dug his fingers in and flung him around. the dad went over while this was happening, and i figured he'd tell him to cut it out, but instead he pulled out his phone and snapped a pic!

my wife had steam coming out of her ears and we cut off contact after that when our son told us he didn't want to see him again (and fortunately this coincided with us no longer going to the same preschool as that kid.)

mum and dad also had a book which proved that humans had been aquatic mammals for a while after they stopped being apes, and that's why we have curly public hair under our arms (sadly i don't recall its title)

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413dcQq1KHL._SL500_SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

that behavior isn't exactly limited to boys, since girls can have unchecked rough behavior too, but it was part of a larger picture there with that friendship and with other random boys he'd bully at playgrounds. xp

I love when someone brings up the aquatic ape theopry

that's it! at least, that's the author -- it was actually the book before that one:

https://pictures.abebooks.com/HALLOFBOOKS/md/md7641565169.jpg

pfft that's barely a challop, MY dad has the following on his bookshelf

https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1355040022l/3304466.jpg

"When asked what genre these works belonged in, Kurtén coined the term paleofiction to describe his oeuvre" 👌🏽

maybe its cuz my brother & sister were so opposite gender stereotype (my sister is in a phd program for math in fact) but i dont really buy anything but the loosest connections between gender & behavior, every kid in school is shaped by socialization & the socially gendered behavior *of the other kids*

you are not a parent iirc

Yes please let us keep trying to settle this centuries-old either/or debate itt, without embracing the possibilities of both/and.

1. i allowed for the possibilities of both and thus "loosest connections"
2. sorry that my involvement was the exact moment when we're no longer allowed to consider this question

it's def "both/and" imo, it's just interesting trying to tease out how they interact and where

xp

you are not a parent iirc

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 2:36 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how is only including the perspectives of parents a legitimate boundary for this conversation

in the circles in which i travel it has gone too much to the side of 'socialization' so when i suggest that biology plays a role i mean it more as a corrective than as an either/or. i think it's both. that said, it would be strange if humans were the only animals where gender behavior was even primarily the product of socialization. the rest of the animal kingdom has very clear social roles depending on the sex of the individual. we can obviously rise above that but when i hear conversations that assume this kind of radical butlerian social construct theory as accurate - it seems v silly to me idk.

when watching Mindhunter i wonder why insanity isn't an equal opportunity employer. jeffrey dahmer's parents were apparently really nice and normal and they loved him a lot but he just started mutilating and killing animals at a young age and the rest is history. what is it about maleness that makes male insanity so much more...extreme. okay, obviously, dahmer is the extreme of the extremes. but you really have to go out of your way to think of female equivalents. complulsive behavior in general can seem really off the charts when it comes to men/males.

it seems even sillier to me that attraction to trucks was considered a biologically-linked trait a few posts upthread

i wonder if you're smart enough to figure it out without it being spelled out for you

Narrator: he was not

Err, I've not seen Mindhunter and this is just an aside, but Dahmer's mother tried to kill herself when he was young, very needy attention wise, and young Dahmer didn't get a lot attention as a result. Not to excuse him, but portraying it as "he grew up in a loving family" is a bit of a stretch. But that probably goes for most.

xxxp to scott

isnt this the kind of dick measuring this thread is suppoesd to be dismantling? or is mordy leaning on his biological inclination to dick measuring

oh cool here we go

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

this one shows that male rhesus monkeys prefer cars and female rhesus monkeys don't have a preference. there's another study about vervet monkeys where the females preferred dolls and the males preferred cars. this suggests to me that there's a biological component or that the monkeys are socializing gender.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/

Now new research suggests that such gender-driven desires are also seen in young female chimpanzees in the wild—a behavior that possibly evolved to make the animals better mothers, experts say.

Young females of the Kanyawara chimpanzee community in Kibale National Park, Uganda, use sticks as rudimentary dolls and care for them like the group's mother chimps tend to their real offspring. The behavior, which was very rarely observed in males, has been witnessed more than a hundred times over 14 years of study.

I'm not one to pass over a legit whaling on d40 but wtf has he said wrong now that is so objectionable?

like i said - we can rise above this stuff but there's a difference between aspirational gender discourse and the pretense that all gender is socially constructed

"but i dont really buy anything but the loosest connections between gender & behavior"

i guess i really do buy the connections. the best case scenario for me is just nothing being a big deal as far as gender goes. which is why i dream of a world where the co-ed shower scene in starship troopers is a no big deal reality.

first we just bind ourselves together in a fascist war-state

Me too Scott me too

why wouldn't apes complex social relations affect their development

but anyway i don't see why this issue matters either way

i suspect there's something inherently aggressive about the action of driving that might be more attractive to men? just the idea of moving this massive thing forward and getting a rush off that.

men much more likely to make unnecessarily sharp or aggressive moves when they want to make a point to another driver. and men sure love those sharp 90 degree turns!