Post a controversial opinion

synthesis: i love David Lee Roth, and i don't want to watch him lead an orchestra

compromise: wolfgang van halen conducts a selection of viennese waltzes at rock in rio

andre rieu and his ilk are gross

didn't hans zimmer do a similar thing with live shows, including coachella or something?

Wolfieeeeee

XP not to steal my own LJ zing but:

Ilxor decries popular entrylev version of historically privileged art as "gross", film at 11

rieu is one level removed from the groups that do insanely well at corporate functions or w/e by doing orchestral covers of rock music

I have no problem with them existing, but the gigs that those groups tend to get make me sad

I like plenty of classical music, can't stand opera.

xp how the hell is it historically privileged, unless you mean in the 1600s? my middle school was pretty damn broke and if you didn't take the choir class, you took "music" which was basically music appreciation, got to hear all eras of symphonic music

i guess he's more like gallagher than dlr, really

imo there's a rieu <-> disney on ice comparison to be made

What dyou think historically means

Barely anyone contributes to the rolling classical thread, and it's always the same people. A microcosm of sorts.

Based on the events I've attended, I wouldn't describe classical audiences as predominantly "snobby" or "elitist" (or "rich") as much as "over 60". I don't really have any strong answer or solution in mind to the problem of the aging and declining audience. CBC (and by all accounts BBC) Radio spent decades trying to broadcast classical music to the general public before 'updating'.

I often hear the argument that the stifling concert hall atmosphere is the problem, that we should have more string quartets playing in pubs and audiences yelling and dancing and singing along during orchestral concerts. There are cases where I can see that working (it worked for Branca) but the thing is, I generally like having a quiet, studious space to listen closely to unamplified concert music with a wide dynamic range. I like being at a Muse concert too but I'm not sure a lot of the art music I like would come across as well if it were presented the same way. (I'm not sure modern concert hall conventions have as much to do with the privilege of the rich and powerful as with middle-class striving for culture/education/self-improvement btw?)

Based on the events I've attended, I wouldn't describe classical audiences as predominantly "snobby" or "elitist" (or "rich") as much as "over 60".

Based on the events I've attended I would describe them as sparse.

It's notable that a high proportion of the younger people going to the ROH seem to go in for the 'champagne and eveningwear' thing - while most of the traditional audience doesn't. idk if that's because of a perceived need to 'fit in' with a largely fictitious archetype or because a lot of moneyed twenty-somethings find the idea of that largely fictitious elitism appealing.

Either way, the fact that you could take a family of eight to the Kyiv opera for the same price as a seat in the gods in London goes a long way towards explaining why you don't get as many kids.

I think that the barrier isn't snobby audiences or incomprehensible music, it's an attitude that has been sold since Caruso started recording that classical and opera is real music, intellectually stimulating and personally improving, and if you don't get it then well, you can't be trying hard enough or maybe you just aren't up to the job. Meanwhile pop and rock are cynically churned out genres, junk food for the masses, etc. This was the dominant view in multiple places up until relatively recently, and is still out there, radio four had an "a point of view" entirely along these lines just a couple of years ago. The popularity of classic fm has somewhat challenged this, but has posed other problems perhaps.

i don't know who is going to replace the oldies in 20 years. maybe their will be a baby boomer classical boom. sometimes i think about just including a classical album with every purchase at my store. maybe i can make some future fans. i went to a book store the other day and they had tons of used classical records out for sale and i found 3 great john cage records, a philip glass record, and an awesome copy of arvo part's tabula rasa. near mint german ecm pressing. no hipster would have gone through all those records to find them. classical records are somehow plague-like. maybe its just because people are used to seeing beat up stuff at yard sales and at thrift stores. but that doesn't account for CDs. i don't think i've ever sold a classical CD to someone under 50 in 8 years. and i get a pretty brainy crowd!

in the u.s. there used to be more interest in the virtuoso. even young people could have told you who van cliburn was. and people had their faves like they had their fave baseball players. it has been a selling point SINCE caruso. but now maybe someone knows yo yo ma and....not much else. bernstein with his kid stuff was huge. he definitely made future fans.

I could've told you who Clayderman was!

http://i.imgur.com/iaCWbAH.jpg

it's an attitude that has been sold since Caruso started recording that classical and opera is real music, intellectually stimulating and personally improving, and if you don't get it then well, you can't be trying hard enough or maybe you just aren't up to the job.

I feel like there would be more of a classical audience if this attitude was still as widespread as it was in the early 20th century. A lot of people will check out indie rock or IDM or Bob Dylan or Miles Davis records for roughly similar reasons: because they are acclaimed or respected and have some sort of cultural cachet attached to them (or people will try bizarre diets or workouts or read Joyce or go to a Picasso exhibit).

I mean, more and better widespread public education in the Western musical canon would be my answer if we really wanted to expand the classical audience. Idk if that will happen, though. Outreach programmes are definitely a good idea.

^^^ I agree with Sund4r.

it's interesting to note that the classical performers who seem to get the most hipster kisses are the ones who are also performers, people like Max Richter, Nils Frahm, Olafur Arnalds, or groups that are filed in that more ambient/post-rock genre even though they could easily be considered classical (if they were old men from Europe.)

even young people could have told you who van cliburn was

He's the one with that "Brown Eyed Girl" song, right?

Sund4r - perhaps I presented this view as too evangelical and not enough grumpy old twat. This is the example I was thinking of, it's enough to put anyone off classical music - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06mv4js

are you aware of Scruton in general tho CaAL? cos he's not worth taking seriously as a critic or human being

and i'd argue that his aestheticism is bad faith, derived from his general political outlook and essentially performative

I am, I even saw him talk as a sixth form politics student and have despised him ever since. But this is the sort of thing that puts people off, still.

_even young people could have told you who van cliburn was_


He's the one with that "Brown Eyed Girl" song, right?

Wait, then who was the painter guy who cut off his ear?

Van Heflin

Aw, yeah! I loved "Hot for Teacher."

Scruton was knighted in the 2016 Birthday Honours for "services to philosophy, teaching and public education".[8]

Down with the monarchy.

that's my kinda classical music amirite guys 🤘xp

van cliburn won a piano competition* and was given a recording contract as a consequence: i think these two facts are why he was public knowledge in a way

*the newly created tchaikovsky prize, held in moscow in 1958 -- there was cold war jostling all over the story

I am, I even saw him talk as a sixth form politics student and have despised him ever since. But this is the sort of thing that puts people off, still.

no i can see that. but i'd say that people get exposed to "classical" music in all sorts of mundane ways much more often than they come across a Scruton

s/b public knowledge in a way in a way most pianists of his talent absolutely weren't at that time

or maybe even, they come across the idea that classical music is boring and highbrow way more frequently than they come across a Scruton

t/s: Homer Simpson vs Roger Scruton

cold war patsy...

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wrti/files/styles/medium/public/201407/VanCLIBURNParade.jpg

I worked in marketing for a contemporary classical music ensemble for 10 years. Audiences were all 50+ except for the smattering of conservatory students and other musicians.

All the major SOMB (Symphony, Opera, Museum, Ballet) institutions are making efforts to reach younger audiences, though, it's not just music. And a lot of those marketing initiatives look corny and pandering. Go to the website of any major arts institution and you will find these. At one point, I was going to make a top 10 list of the "worst offenders" ... but I never found the time.

Relatedly, look for promo pics of chamber ensembles standing in front of brick walls. So many of these ... I dunno if it has any effect on audiences thinking classical music is cool.

There's a guy I know who does these sort of pop-up orchestra things where they play a mix of classical and pop songs. There's another guy I know who has this "classical revolution" tour/movement thing that he does.

But I kinda feel like it is most effective with kids -- or maybe that's what the studies show. And that gets into arts education and curriculum standards, etc. and that's another lengthy discussion.

One of the things I like about my daughter's school is that everybody learns an instrument. All third-graders start on recorder, and every fourth- and fifth-grader plays an instrument (either band or orchestra). Everybody. I like it; it's something I never had.

We were never rich but my family runs a ballet school, my mother's the concertmaster of an orchestra, I can play four or five instruments passably well. (Still have never had lessons, and still can't read music. It's all a vast tapestry.) Enough about me tho

haha the recorder put me off learning an instrument for a few years! Hated the recorder.

Audiences were all 50+ except for the smattering of conservatory students and other musicians.

Was about to say, in my experience of attending (contemporary) classical music concerts, that anyone 25 is almost certainly a music student.

... under 25. As these concerts are often at music colleges, I suspect students are encouraged to go to make the audiences seems larger.

Yeah, if we're talking about contemporary compositional music, a basic issue with marketing/outreach would seem to be that virtually anyone who has chosen that career path has more or less fundamentally decided that appealing to popular taste is (at most) a secondary concern. Unless you're Eric Whitacre or someone.

Generally speaking, kids who choose to go to a music college are going to go to the concerts held there because A) they are interested in that type of music, and B) their friends will be performing.

Tbh, in many university music courses, a certain small percentage, e.g. 5%, of your grade is given for proof of concert attendance.

^^^ that too

Backing up a bit, I've seen one opera live, it was Peter Grimes, and it was very impressive and I didn't enjoy it. Enjoyed all sorts of other live classical stuff.

Opera. In English. I think I'll pass.