Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

kissing on the cheek is rough, i like it in principle but i'm always worried that my beard is gonna scratch delicate faces

someone post that Everything Is Terrible guide to kissing ffs

Lip's very strange!

The trick is to do such a horrifyingly poor job of it the first time that it's never expected of you a second.

bonus points for exaggeratingly saying mmmmmmWAH

I dread a certain friend who has to hug every single person in the room upon arriving and leaving. It's so relentlessly comprehensive.

Don't you need to make a kissing noise too? Usually it's not just silently pressing lips against the cheek.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, October 27, 2017 11:45 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

do a slight lip purse and then make the noise. try it. it's not too hard.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6156ZhOnRpI/UdAg3DUXwII/AAAAAAAAHD4/t6IuKZTo4Co/s913/Tener.jpg

was wondering how long that was going to take to show up tbh (it was the first thing I thought of)

Me too, but I went with Prince instead.

do a slight lip purse and then make the noise. try it. it's not too hard.

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 27 October 2017 21:39

I don't think I can do it right. It feels daft unless you're sucking their skin for a split-second (blowing just makes a blowing sound) and I don't feel comfortable doing that with most people.

wtaf

well then

http://www.publicbooks.org/big-picture-confronting-manhood-trump/

In fact, we should be as suspicious of males who strongly identify as men as we are of white people who strongly identify as white. We should understand, in hindsight, that one of the reasons women were so keen to embrace masculinity in the first place was because it feels good to feel superior. And we should recognize, as well, that it is men’s belief that they should be superior to women and other men that is the cause of so much of their rage, self-hatred, and suffering.

We are here in Trump’s America in part because we have been too delicate in our treatment of dangerous ideas. The problem is not toxic masculinity; it’s that masculinity is toxic. Its appeal is its alluring promise that if we obey it, we can all bask in a sense of superiority over someone. It’s simply not compatible with liberty and justice for all.

And the paragraph above that:

If we’re going to survive both President Trump and the kind of people he has emboldened, we need to attack masculinity directly. I don’t mean that we should recuperate masculinity—that is, press men to identify with a kinder, gentler version of it—I mean that we should reject the idea that men have a psychic need to distinguish themselves from women in order to feel good about themselves. This idea is sexist on its face and it’s unsettling that we so rarely think of it that way.

Not sure what the purpose of this thread is. Not sure a thread needs to be dedicated to this. Every thread is a mans thread on ilx mostly. "I long to hear a womens voice" tbh

mom raised me and I will always respect women because of how I was raised. I wish we d

Could work together.

damn youre too woke for my blood

There are women on this thread, dude. You seem to have misunderstood its purpose.

Y cant we all just get along lol

i like the idea of femininity and masculinity, as long as there's no rules on who gets to embody them

I think philosophically there's a good case for abolishing gender - why divide people into these two categories, specifically? Why only two? Can they be separated from their hierarchical standing? etc.

But in the real world it's not something I see many people willing to give up on, and at this stage where trans men and women are still struggling to be accepted as men and women it's a bit cart before the horses I think.

i don't think "post-gender" thinking is any better of an idea than "post-racial" thinking. more genders, not fewer.

"Post-racial" as a concept in current times is just code for "racism is over, please let's not talk about race" which is 100% bullshit, but race is only a useful category when pointing out racial discrimination - if racial discrimination ends (yeah, I know, not likely) the result of that actually will be a post-racial society, at least I can't think of how it could be different.

So the question is, is there a use for gender besides making ppl aware of gender discrimination?

It's a slightly trickier question than with race I think because with race we *know* the whole concept was cooked up to justify white people's domination over others; gender may very well have initially appeared for the same reasons, but it's impossible for us to know.

Lolz

because of how I was raised. I wish we d

Thanks for pointing out my typo J. Was typing on my
iPhone. Sorry everyone. Was drunk when I posted. Have enjoyed posts itt from both the men and women. And woke? I'm not woke. Anyways, leaving this thread cuz ilx bums me out when people correct me

If that’s the case, you’re in the right thread
Fear of being wrong, the most toxic of the masculinities

This is worth reading. Not all the shit about football at the end, but the long intro.

Not sure how to take that comment but I have no issue admitting I'm wrong

cmon ross don't feel glum i just wish we d : )

Lol j alright. :-)

ending maleness is the logical endpoint of this current ideological moment but the moment and the idea is pretty ass backwards so u kno gotta decide whether to swim upstream or not i guess

if masculinity is a restriction on the notion of each individual having a gender identity individual as a fingerprint then i think its reasonable to resist on a personal/interpersonal level

but i also tend to think ppl dont realize how deeply entrenched gender ideas are, and how much everyone feeds into and feeds on them

I would find it easier to think in terms of 'what does masculinity mean? Does it really mean you have to be bigger and meaner than everyone else?' than in terms of 'getting rid of masculinity altogether'

NB the scope of this comment is 'what I would find easier'.

interesting how closely this is starting to track the abolish-the-police thread.

This will, I'm sure, only reiterate something that's been said in similar discussions on other threads. But the problem with advocating for a nicer version of masculinity is that it presents a dilemma. If the laudable traits built into it are somehow supposed to be particular to men, then idea itself is sexist. But if they're not, then the new masculinity won't actually give men something to aspire to as men--the masculine part of it will be incidental, which is to say pointless.

anyone here read Susan Faludi's book Stiffed? one of her themes is the ways that capitalism has taken away men's ability to contribute to their communities

feel like we should put together a reading list maybe?

st1ffed

Kevin Spacey, a two-time Oscar winner, apologized Sunday night for what he said “would have been deeply inappropriate drunken behavior” after the actor Anthony Rapp accused him of making a sexual advance on him 31 years ago, when Mr. Rapp was 14 years old.

Mr. Spacey, who has long been fiercely private about his personal life, said in a statement that he did not remember any such encounter, but added that Mr. Rapp’s accusation “has encouraged me to address other things about my life.” He then disclosed that he had “loved and had romantic encounters with men throughout my life, and I choose now to live as a gay man.”

I saw both of the plays that Spacey and Rapp were appearing in that year.

Truly revolting bundling of topics there by Spacey.

I dont see 'ending masculinity' as the endpoint of the current feminist narrative, really. for example, even when internet feminists mock MRAs/MGTOWs or whatever, it's in a way that implies that they failed at masculinity, rather than that they are masculinity and that such masculinity should be overturned: feminists mock them as ugly fedora'd neckbeards, skinny chinless nerds, and so on—the MRAs failed at becoming the "alphas" that they worship. rather, the feminist narrative wants a better masculinity, a revisionist masculinity: dashing, protective, decisive-but-not-domineering, vulnerable-but-not-whiny, etc.

maybe there is a vanguard that still wants to overturn masculinity or gender altogether, but it's still a tiny vanguard from what I can tell, and most of the movement(s) understands gender as something rather intractable, but something that can be reformed into less destructive power relations.

What are ‘internet feminists’?

I’m going to charitably assume “feminists on the internet” until the Milkshake Duck effect kicks into high gear

Of course the comic potential of MRAs striving towards an Alpha ideal and failing comprehensively is routinely and deservingly mocked, but I don't think it follows that the ideal itself isn't being attacked - someone who actually embodies the qualities MRAs strive to attain (and in fact there's plenty out there who have qualities yr typical MRA lacks: physical strenght, self-confidence, etc.) could still be a pretty terrible person (and certainly more dangerous).

a better masculinity, a revisionist masculinity: dashing, protective, decisive-but-not-domineering, vulnerable-but-not-whiny, etc.

Kinda with JRN on this one: is there any reason to gender these qualities?

I always find it hilarious that Ben Shapiro, who prattles on about "protecting women" all the time, is like 5'4" - 5'6". TBC, nothing wrong with being short but there are a lot of women who could protect him better than he could protect them.

https://media.giphy.com/media/XqNEOQT9bp3uE/giphy.gif

But the larger point there seems important -- a lot of our gender attitudes are vestiges of a past in which physical labor was a substantial part of most people's lives, and physical strength against threats was a more common need, and men were/are on average physically stronger, so some division of labor made sense. However that division of labor and "protection" also came with inequality. Today, when most people in advanced countries almost never do or need to do physical labor, and "protection" is mostly either professionalized or automated, men increasingly struggle to rationalize their vestigial superior attitudes, since there isn't really evidence that women are less able to do most of the jobs and tasks the modern economy requires, and in some cases are excelling more than men at them on average. Maybe higher testosterone levels have some kind of advantage in some fields, but the analysis is often prone to circular reasoning (e.g. "Men are better negotiators because they're more aggressive." But why does negotiation have to be aggressive? If people on both sides use a different approach, the aggression isn't necessary).

xp, I think a guy who bats .346 with 24 HRs is probably a little different on the protection scale than a fierce debater.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Monday, October 30, 2017 9:26 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I do think it’s true that society broadly still rewards men who perform masculinity “effectively” tbh