Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

i guess i don't think we get to talk about how predatory men are while still expecting men to trust other men more

My sis and I seeping over friends' houses was not a trend my parents endorsed, in large part because they feared sexual abuse. They were honest about it. By the time I got to junior year high school I'd done it a few times and normalized it.

Still ended up gay, though.

uh *sleeping over

sleepovers were p big when i was a kid but we always slept in sleeping bags on like the living room floor or whatever. i would have shared beds with my brother on family holidays, or like with my cousin or whatever. subsequently with friends on holidays when we were younger/poorer. it's not a big deal to share a bed. it's not even particularly intimate, not least when both people are comatose from booze.

I feel like this has quite a lot of crossover with being an English man with serious nervousness about physical contact with anyone, even friends and family

I like that Laurie Penny article!

I’m worried about a lot of people right now. I’m worried about the several men I know who have hurt women in the past and who are now facing the consequences. I’m worried about the men who are analyzing their own behavior in horror, who stood aside and let it happen, and who are suddenly realizing their own complicity — and struggling to cope with the guilt, the shame of that knowledge. That’s allowed. Empathy is not being rationed here, and we can worry about whoever we like — as long as we worry about the survivors first.

That's nice. I gentle-fought with a friend last night. He was like, "why are you doing that emotional labour for that abuser friend? so you can justify continuing to work with him?" And I said, "partially, but also because I think the better response to the upending of rape culture is to hold your close friends accountable when they've harmed people. Not to abandon them but to help them reform themselves. I think it's a more productive move than screaming 'BREAK UP YOUR BAND' at them over the internet." My idiot friend was like, "lol. OK. I think he should kill himself, but whatever"

also, i never liked waking up in other people's houses. and have to talk to other parents and eat their weird food.

lol otm

i did lots of sleepovers as a kid but in the morning i just wanted to get the fuck out of there and go home. when i had friends sleepover my house by the end of the night i wanted them to go home too.

OTM. The worst part of having dates over is the mild anxiety of wondering if he understands I want him to leave, like, now. At least at someone's house I can leave when I want.

My idiot friend was like, "lol. OK. I think he should kill himself, but whatever"

While we're on the subject of toxic culture / relationships, about this friend of yours...

You don’t take them out for brunch?

If it’s a literal rapist we are talking about and this person suffered abuse or something, the attitude is understandable, if uncharitable and against how I try to live. Xp

I still think the “spectrum” model of this stuff causes confusion. Like if someone wanted all catcallers to kill themselves, or all people who made a clumsy pass at a female acquaintance at a party but backed off when they saw it wasn’t working, I’d say that was extreme. I know all this stuff feeds into each other but still. There is a line between toxic and criminal.

@ Alfo lol. I'm only in it for the cuddle. The brief period I was using hook-up apps, a guy asked "so, what are you into?" and I said "I'll do anything, anything at all, so long as you spoon me all night and eat the breakfast I make for you in the morning"

Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby aren’t mere casualties of a society with regressive attitudes. They’re sexual predators. They knew what they did was wrong and did it anyway. Over and over.

hugging = of course, sleeping in same bed = eh, if necessary, no big deal, "cuddling" = erm, no guys are gross.

Everyone has a different level of energy for doing emotional labor for others. I have very little these days especially for people with certain behaviors like domestic violence, harmful drug abuse, habitual coercive behaviors. Idk. I mean I don't actually want them to die but I'm indifferent to the prospect of their non-existence.

Ya perfect breakdown tbh xp

one of my Korean students taught me the best Konglish word for platonic touching: SKINSHIP
is that the greatest or what?! i bring it up because i had asked my students what some of their pet peeves were (conversation/idiom practice) and skinship was brought up immediately.

some interesting stuff here: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2017/10/anthony_bourdain_on_weinstein_john_besh_and_meathead_restaurant_culture.html

Everyone has a different level of energy for doing emotional labor for others. I have very little these days especially for people with certain behaviors like domestic violence, harmful drug abuse, habitual coercive behaviors. Idk. I mean I don't actually want them to die but I'm indifferent to the prospect of their non-existence.

― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:54 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's totally valid, almost doesn't even need to be explained. Those types of behavior are black holes of energy and emotion, and it's rare for an effort to even pay off.

I could stand a world with more cuddling as long as it's not random douchebags in the street trying to sell me something or be wacky

"guys are gross" is hmmmmm, interesting, lie down on the couch and tell me more

some interesting stuff here: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2017/10/anthony_bourdain_on_weinstein_john_besh_and_meathead_restaurant_culture.html

lol I was about to be all "gawd we already TALKED about that" but then I realized I was bringing a conversation on Facebook over here

I feel like cuddling is reserved for my significant other and my children (who will also surely grow out of it/not want it at some point - presumably around puberty)

see I could not cuddle with a man without succumbing to...urges

haha sorry Dan
xp

"guys are gross" is hmmmmm, interesting, lie down on the couch and tell me more

lol well Doc you see it all started when I realized I was a hetero cis-gendered male...

I feel like cuddling is reserved for my significant other and my children (who will also surely grow out of it/not want it at some point - presumably around puberty)

This is also how I feel; if I'm not in a sexual relationship with you or raising you, I do not want to cuddle you.

29 out of 30...i don't know about that. i mean, i wonder what the definition of cuddling is here, because my definition is more like...

http://thefilmspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Screen-Shot-2013-11-24-at-3.36.49-PM.png

I remember a point in my childhood where I just decided it wasn't ok to kiss my dad goodnight anymore and then maybe a few years after I kinda regretted making this arbitrary withdrawal of physical contact that by then felt too late to undo

I can't separate cuddling from sex, whether as prelude or aftermath, and neither could John Candy.

In most Latino households, men kiss close male relatives on the cheek; it's no big deal. When I get drunk, I get kissy with straight friends.

lol well Doc you see it all started when I realized I was a hetero cis-gendered male...

I'm only exploring this playfully but I'm not sure why straightness or cisness would lead you to effectively reject your own physicality tho, guys are gross = "I am gross"

Bold statement imo

Bourdain has taken to Twitter to attack “meathead culture” in the restaurant world

Bourdain maintains a ridiculous vendetta against veganism, so who's the real "meat head"

eh kissing on the cheek euro/latino-greeting style is no big deal

in India male friends hold hands walking down the street etc., which I always found an interesting contrast to the west

xp

NV obviously I meant *other* guys are gross. I am awesome and deserving of all the love I can get.

Arms draped over shoulders is close enough whether sitting or standing with the lads

Don't tbh feel it needs a lot of investigating. I don't know many women who cuddle their friends either.

29 from 30 sounds to me like you're stretching what cuddles are alright

Brothers, dad and close cousins may or may get a big sloppy kiss behind the ear idk this stuff is contextual

I don't like touching other people or being touched by other people. My wife is the sole exception to this. I wouldn't even shake hands if it wasn't socially mandated, and I am definitely not a hug-one's-coworkers type. This is not germophobia or anything; it's just personal space. You stand over there, I'll stand over here, and we'll have a nice friendly conversation.

anything "natural" is worth picking at imo

of course I understand why people don't cuddle - proper cuddle - people beyond their closest intimacy circle, the same reason I wouldn't do it

just think that's a shame tbh, this personal space/intimacy/propriety lark feels like a gulf of self-inflicted sadness to me

Of course, my wife has occasionally had to advise me that we'll get better service if I make eye contact with the waiter/waitress when ordering, so maybe I'm more of an outlier than I realize.

I just don't get the idea of non-sexual cuddling. What's the point?

I can't separate cuddling from sex, whether as prelude or aftermath, and neither could John Candy.

― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:02 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Lol. Same though. Hugging on meeting, departing, or in between for whatever: sure. Kissing male friends too, all no big deal. Cuddling though, can't imagine that.

wrote that before reading unperson's post - obv some people feel strongly about personal space - I work with a load of them - and sure, fine, but probably for many people it's just a propriety/convention thing and the world would be great if we had a bit more animal chimpunity

It's a pity I am an excellent cuddler tbh

the honesty's too much

I don't think cuddling w people outside my closest intimacy circle would make me happier in any way. I am not sad about the level of cuddling in my life. For ex., I have a 4yo boy who is super-cuddly, I get it every day, it's plenty and it's great.

ah there's the difference, I'm a sad single isolated old man

sort of tying this back into the "consent" thing, I've been trying to make a point of asking my 5-yr-old daughter "do you want a hug?" "do you want me to cuddle you?" Sometimes she says yes, sometimes no, and I do feel like it is giving her the message that it's ok for her to decide when she wants someone to touch her.

nah I'm just tactile if I can say that without sounding like the worst creepoid on earth.

consentually tactile

In times when life was more, um, fluid, I am pretty sure I slept platonically with five or six close friends, both male and female, in various combinations.

It was seen as a gesture of trust and comfort; the nonsexual nature of it was overtly discussed and understood. Also we were poor and weird and lived what I guess might be called edgy or alternative lifestyles, with lots of staying out late, lots of booze and drugs, considerable sexuality and gender ambiguity, and lots of being in unusual places with sketchy dwelling arrangements and few transportation options.

Can't quite imagine this happening now that my friends and I are living rather more conventionally, with houses and jobs and families and adult routines. I'm not going to approach Bob or Susan at work (or even after a co-worker happy hour) and suggest we have a little cuddle.