Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

and i didn't do anything wrong

I've been sexually harassed by men more than women too, and in worse ways, although nowhere near as often as women get harassed. When I was a freshman in college I had a middle aged man approach me at a city bus stop and start asking increasingly intrusive questions about where i lived and my sexual habits and then asking if I wanted to get my dick sucked. I was 18 and even that one experience had a pretty bad effect on me and left me questioning for a long time if there was something wrong with me or some reason he chose me.

does not having done anything wrong make it harder?

no it should make it easier, but it doesn't
still hard

it is, and it sucks. it shouldn't be your responsibility.

It only occurred to me in recent years that I was kinda routinely sexually harassed by a friend of mine as a teenager, someone I'd known from childhood and who developed into kind of a shitty friend who routinely messed with me in a variety of ways (ex. my first experience with alcohol was when he plied me with glass after glass of this new peach-flavored Sprite that turned out to not actually be a thing that existed) until I decided I was just done dealing with it. Thankfully, he was never aggressive or overly-physical about it, but it was persistent and weirdly confusing. People have often mistaken me for gay and I'd often wondered if he was just confused and picking up on signals that I wasn't intending to give, but I realized at a point that he still should've relented when I explicitly told him I wasn't interested. I think I felt a little bad or guilty that I wasn't?

It's also weird because he was instrumental in introducing me to a lot of LGBT-positive entertainment at a formative time that I know helped me become a much more open and tolerant person than I might've become, given the geography and circumstances that were forming me at the time. But then that also has its own weird pall over it because I wonder if he was, like, trying to groom me or something. I dunno.

One of my perennial issues with modern-day discussions about sexual harassment and consent is that, in my experience, the definitions of "what is non-consensual" doesn't relate all the time to "what is traumatic".

Jia Tolentino wrote this in The New Yorker:

"If you have ever experienced sexual assault or harassment, you know that one of the cruellest things about these acts is the way that they entangle, and attempt to contaminate, all of the best things about you. If you’re sweet and friendly, you’ll think that it’s your fault for accommodating the situation. If you’re tough, well, you might as well decide that it’s no big deal. If you’re a gentle person, then he knew you were weak. If you’re talented, he thought of you as an equal. If you’re ambitious, you wanted it. If you’re savvy, you knew it was coming. If you’re affectionate, you seemed like you were asking for it all along. If you make dirty jokes or have a good time at parties, then why get moralistic? If you’re smart, there’s got to be some way to rationalize this.

When you are a young woman, and you believe in your own worth and personhood and agency, it can be hard, despite the clichés that govern this situation, to understand that an older man who takes an interest in you does not necessarily share these beliefs. And, of course, young women are not the only victims of such crimes. But this is a basic and familiar pattern: a powerful man sees you, a woman who is young and who thinks she might be talented, a person who conveniently exists in a female body, and he understands that he can tie your potential to your female body, and threaten the latter, and you will never be quite as sure of the former again."

This is, in my opinion, the missing link regarding traumatic relationships... if somebody in a position of power acts sexually toward you, regardless of any level of consensuality, there will be a synaptic link created. This link: "is my future as an actress less reliant upon my talent, and more upon my willingness to put out?" Or like, "academic future", "my future at this company", etc. The value of one's capability becomes compromised.

I've only read bits and pieces of this thread, but one thing that seems to be in question is how different, or not, rules of conduct are or should be for all-male spaces--which is to say, specifically gay spaces. It is something that has been on my mind a lot lately, both for academic and non-academic reasons. As any of the other queer men in this thread can undoubtedly attest, there are certain behaviours that are allowed to take place in gay male settings that would NEVER fly in heterosexual ones. One that comes to mind is the debate (which has recently come up again in Canada) over the legality surrounding disclosure of HIV status. I don't really want to start a debate on this particular issue, but one argument that I have found myself making, as many people seem to be arguing in favour of an HIV-positive person not having to their status to a sexual partner, is that this debate would probably sound a lot different if HIV as a specifically sexually transmitted disease specifically in Western countries were not one closely--I'm trying not to say exclusively--associated with gay men. Taking it away from the HIV issue again, I still don't think that, despite some high profile cases (Bryan Singer) shining a public light on the subject, that we still really conceive of sexual violence, harassment or coercion as being something that occurs among gay men.

I guess my point is that whether or not such issues should be considered differently when they take place in all-male spaces, it currently seems to be the case that they are.

(continuation of my previous post)

In the gay community it kind of holds that any differential in dick size, age, beauty, affluence, one's place on the racial hierarchy*, fitness and so forth means that All Relationships Are Unequal, and contain power differentials. Non-consensual activity in the gay community has seemed, in my experience, to have had a far less traumatizing effect on my friends, than scenarios that re-enforce and/or exploit the power dynamics and brutalize people's self-image as a result.

*a system that obviously nobody agrees with, but neither has anybody seemed to have figured out a definitive way of attacking

On Old Lunch's experience: it isn't always easy for gay kids to figure out for sure who else is gay, but getting someone drunk (especially if they don't know they're drinking alcohol!) in order to find out is probably the very worst way to go about it.

not to distract from the other important gay community convo going on but

one of my friends posted that every man who's been a harasser, who's been an abuser, should be the one saying "me, too". i agree, but it was still hard for me to say that i'd at least once harassed a woman. any thoughts?

my thoughts are that this is total bullshit, more "me me me" whiny crap, "why isn't there a National Men's Day" etc.

women are responding viscerally to this and let's just stfu and honor that

I dunno. I had a friend come forward a few years ago and post about how he'd been called in for sexual abuse. He told people about what he'd gone through (therapeutically) as a result. He apologized to his victims again. It was amazing. This is kind of the reason why I wish sexual abuse was destigmatized. It makes it easier for perpetrators to step up and admit fault

I agree w/your general point on that but I still don't wanna see any men going "what about me" in my FB timeline cuz imo this "me too" thing is a response to the imbalances of power regarding women specifically, and the universality or near-universality of sexual assault as pertains to women

Hm OK, you do realize that the proposition was that men step up to admit that they'd assaulted and/or harassed women, though, right? not men stepping up to describe scenarios in which they'd been assaulted by women or men (sorry if this question comes across as patronizing I just want to be clear we're clear)

I have been grappling with that because it is, as sleeve said, women having a solidarity and making it clear to friends that they aren’t alone and sharing a sense of recognition

I have one friend on facebook who posted about how he’s been a harasser and how he understands the wrongness of the behavior he’s exhibited. I thought it was well-phrased, and women have responded positively to the fact he did it. But the response that made me wonder was the question, “How have you sexually harassed women?”

That’s where the cynic in me thinks that all women have been harassed, most/all men have been harassers, and defining the harassment isn’t for the harasser or abuser to define. I can think of incidents where I feel uncomfortable with how I’ve acted and things I’ve done, and to me they were harassment but I don’t want to speak out about things when, in a few cases, my acts might have been construed differently than I’ve seen them and it feels like I’m looking for validation that I wasn’t really causing harm.

i can't imagine anyone feeling comfortable "coming forward" in this way about transgressions that they actually thought were serious. maybe in the case of people who want to unburden a severely guilty conscience. but i don't think someone who is a "sexual abuser" would come forward about that for the sake of furthering the conversation in a way that helps women.

more likely, the people coming forward as harassers either didn't do anything that serious or else aren't taking what they did seriously.

Yeah. Especially on facebook of all places.

there are certain behaviours that are allowed to take place in gay male settings that would NEVER fly in heterosexual ones.

crypto otm here

fwiw, I was gonna post about the differences between male-male vs male-female workplace relationships even where sexual harassment is not in play, and there are definitely more general behaviors that seem to be perceived more as "bullying" when from a male to a female, where as males are socialized to see it more as "coaching" or "tough love" or something. I wonder if even in the gay community that same kind of male socialization comes into play.

I think people might want to come forward on Facebook as "abusers" in order to hold themselves accountable to their community? I think the demonstration might be a good example toward other men who feel conflicted about scenarios in which they've assaulted somebody? I think it demonstrates to women who have been assaulted that there are men who are willing to be held accountable and believe them when they say "you assaulted me"?

been following this thread without contributing so far and I want to thank everybody for their honesty and perspective, it's been really illuminating and refreshing and much love to the victims who have spoke about their experiences.

I'm an openly gay man, and I've never been good at masking or hiding it - my interests code as traditionally "camp", my voice is higher, I talk a lot with my hands, etc. I don't attempt to pass as straight and most people realise instantly. That's shaped a lot of my experience of what masculinity is, how I perform it, how I deal with it. It's only been the past two or three years where I've felt confident enough to enter a room or sit at a table in a bar with a group of men and not have to downplay my gayness in order to assimilate - before that I'd have checked myself, watching the way I spoke and the level of my voice, going along with conversations about "masculine" topics such as football that I have no interest or knowledge regarding.

The thing about homophobia that can't be stressed enough is that it's routed in misogyny - it's perceiving weakness in men because their traits resemble those associated with women. Which sounds pretty obvious, but sometimes it needs spelled out. "No fats no femmes" is so common in gay experience.

I think recognising what the impact of rape culture, homophobic social structures, etc, actually looks like in practice is vital. For me, it isn't about the names that people use against me or who has said/done things to me. It's the fact that every new situation I find myself in becomes a potential risk. It isn't about whether or not I've been attacked phsyically for being obviously gay, it's about the ambient threat that permeates my world, the fact that at thirty years old I still walk home with my key in my hand in case someone should appear ready to hurt me because of their prejudice. And I say all this as a white guy in a relatively safe existence: it must be so much worse for people with less structural privilege than me.

In terms of the sexual assault discussion upthread and the idea of power in relationships, I think about a few occasions where my own will has been compromised:

I don't like blowjobs from either side of the experience but I run out of fingers when I count the guys who've pushed my face down and I've let myself go along with it because this is what gay men do, this is what they expect. I don't think of those times as assault because I could and should have said no but in my eagerness to please I've went along with it.

When I was 15 and curious and there was no opportunity to explore my sexuality in my immediate small-town life, I did what everyone does: I went online. I set up an account on Faceparty, which was like a mix of OKCupid and Facebook in the early noughties, and like many guys my age I would chat via MSN to guys who I would then meet with at the under-age clubnights in the city in the weekend for a snog. But I would also get messages from older guys. One guy who was 30 who was insanely good-looking and said all the right things and I very nearly did meet up with. And at the time I would have been very willing and able. But as I've approached 30 myself it's gradually dawned on me how wrong that would have been - it was predatory, and I can't imagine myself ever wanting to cast myself in the older role of that dynamic.

When I was 19 I dated a guy who told me he was 29 but later discovered to be in his mid thirties. I was really into the relationship because this guy was into music and books that I was into, and he was academic and invested in the same cultural theory topics I was enjoying studying at university. His career was taking him in directions that at the time I wanted to pursue. But he was also very controlling. When we first started hanging out, before it became anything serious, he fell out with me for a week because I had friends over for lunch and it over-ran meaning our date (ie a takeaway at his house) would have to be postponed or cancelled. He was fairly vicious about it, and I found myself begging for a second chance, when in actual fact I should have taken it as a red flag. We were on and off for nearly a year. He would get drunk and tell me he loved me and was suicidal in the same breath, but I would also find myself waking up in bed with him masturbating beside me. It was manipulative behaviour and he clearly didn't respect my sexual boundaries. I don't think of waking up to find him pleasuring himself while looking at my body as anything more than "creepy" but it is uncomfortable enough to make me flinch if I think about it.

When I was 21 I interviewed a b-list 40-something gay TV comedian for a student magazine. The day the interview was scheduled came and I phoned up to ask my questions only to discover that his mother had died the day before. I offered to cancel but he was insistent the interview go ahead, and I ended up with a piece which I was really happy with - he was open and honest about his grief and it made for some really moving copy. When the interviewee came to Glaasgow he invited me to come see his stand-up comedy show and we ended up going for a drink afterwards. He told me more about his grief, his unhappiness, and the effect on his relationship. I wasn't naive enough to believe that a prime-time figure was opening his heart out to a university student without an ulterior motive, but when you're 21 and a famous person wants to have sex with you, it's thrilling. I'm not sure who was exploiting who there.

this is all a bit off-topic in terms of this thread's remit but I thought these thoughts and stories were relevant, and also I wanted to share them because they're not something I ever really talk about, even with my friends.

thanks for that, boxedjoy.

women are responding viscerally to this and let's just stfu and honor that

sleeve otm

my thoughts are that this is total bullshit, more "me me me" whiny crap, "why isn't there a National Men's Day" etc.

women are responding viscerally to this and let's just stfu and honor that

― sleeve

i mean, if this was just a consciousness-raising exercise, if it was just about recognizing and honoring women for their experiences, i'd agree. i'm not seeing it that way. this is something men do to women, not something "bad guys" do but something _any_ man can do, and i don't think just putting on our empathy faces is an adequate response to this. we, as human beings and as men, need to do something about this shit, and acknowleding our individual culpability seems like a good start.

then again i used to be catholic, so what the hell do i know?

if you want to atone for something you've done, making a public statement of contrition is a very self-centered way to go about it imo.
saying you're sorry directly (privately) to a person you know you've hurt is a better more compassionate (less self-centered) approach.

back when facebook first started to be widely used, i got not one but two genuine apologies
it helped and made me feel more positively toward these people who had hurt me

the people who have hurt me the worst are not on facebook (wonder why).
one is dead and i'm positive the other one is hiding

btw in case it wasn't clear these people were men

men: dud

that feels trite coming from a man. conventional masculinity: dud, maybe

Trite, sure, guilty as charged. An emotional reaction.

To expand then: if the topic were "men: C or D," the binary nature of the form suggests that one consider the topic as a whole, and make an overall judgment. I'd have to come down on the side of D. It's reductive, certainly flippant, and it doesn't address the very necessary topic of "what to do about it." Even the people in this thread (most of whom probably think they're pretty aware of the problems) don't agree.

If the topic were "men: S&D," one might plausibly say destroy conventional masculinity, sure, imago. But honestly trying to say what kinds of maleness & masculinity are acceptable is harder (see above) and sort of invites the rabbit hole of #notallmen, and right now that just seems like pointless posturing to me right now.

So, either way: what to do about it?

idk, listen to women more i guess

this thread has been an elucidating read though, especially the stuff from a gay perspective, kiu

'Listen to (members of demographic which is marginalized relative to your own demographic) more' is eternally excellent advice.

Alongside the very important implied prefix to that advice, 'Just shut up already and...'

My friends aren't especially woke or sophisticated, but there's no "locker room talk" when we hang

I don't know if this is what you are specifically referring to, but I feel the need to point out that, as "locker room talk" became a kind of signifier in the most recent American election, such talk, in my admittedly extremely limited experience (gym class, high school track and field, far too infrequent trips to the gym to work out), while often raunchy, does not generally consist of bragging about sexual assaults, and I heard guys far more experienced in such talk confirm this fact in the wake of 2016.

I really think we all should not just "listen" to women but learn to empathize with them more. I think there's a huge connection between men's socialization not to identify with anything feminine in themselves and their difficulty empathizing with women. FWIW this is what I ultimately came to feel is damaging about most porn, that it evinces and reinforces a complete lack of empathy. I think that's what the real problem is with "objectification," -- it's not that desire should never have an element of objectification to it, but that complete objectification = lack of empathy. And I think this can come out in more subtle ways even for guys who are not the "locker room talk" type.

It's so much easier to see and admit that at 38 than it was at 21 though.

I think disparaging men as a class is part of toxic masculinity. (If you're a man doing it.) So much of the interactions among men are based on competitiveness and mutual suspicion. I think the lack of close male friendships and suport is part of what leads to the aggressive, bitter spiral that leads some men to mistreat women, or see them and objects. In some cases. It's not a full explanation for sexual assault, but I think isolation lead to all kinds of psychological damage and the lack of communication among men makes it hard for men to keep each other in check.

Xp to ye mad puffin

massively otm

Also man alive otm

Also, I have to say that I loved everything about boxedjoy's post, but what is especially striking to me is the evocation that of the unease that gay men feel in society in the larger context of this conversation. I've never been (physically) gay bashed, but existing in the world as an open gay man brings with it a trunk of anxieties, and it sometimes occurs to me when we discuss issues such as this that my anxieties (I don't think that I'm especially flamboyant, but I am openly gay, married, and not shy about talking about any of it, so who knows if I might have said the wrong thing to the wrong person who wants to make a point of catching me out in the parking lot or whatever) are like a small fraction compared to what many (most?) women probably feel all the fucking time.

boxedjoy thank you for your post

trust yourself to do better and trust other men can, too

I loved boxedjoy's post too. As someone hetero it has been illuminating to read a lot of the posts in this thread, both learning about experiences that are different from mine and recognizing familiar feelings.

Agreed, man alive. I was suggesting but probably should have explicitly stated that listening more to women is really just a first step, necessary but by no means sufficient unto itself.

Empathy is a thing I've been thinking about a lot lately, particularly the ways in which true and deep empathy is not just about seeing and acknowledging and respecting another person's personhood but also striving to understand the ways in which the context and circumstances of another person's life frame their perspective. It involves a lot of ego suppression, acknowledging that that other person I'm interacting with is responding in part to the construction of Me that I'm familiar with but is also potentially responding to a whole host of other things that have nothing to do with me specifically, including that person's history of interactions with other people who superficially resemble me in one way or another. If any of that makes sense.

if the topic was humans c or d i'd vote d. if it was women "c or d" i'd have to assume also d.

who would vote that all humans are classic? or all of any mass group of them?

maybe the "classic or dud" format is straining here.

I don't want to turn this into some kind of #goodmenproject thing, but as long as men aren't going anywhere, I think we have a responsibility to try to envision a better maleness. As much as gender is a construct, I don't think maleness is akin to whiteness as a kind of invented and completely fluid category that we can just abandon. And as long as that's true, saying "men suck" (as a man) can mean abdicating the responsibility to try to do better.

i don't think that men suck or are a dud fwiw. there are some things about men *in general* that are problematic but i agree that men: dud isn't helpful. generally speaking, they don't listen to me so it's up to you to keep the shitty ones in check.

for example, if you excuse a friend for being "kind of a dick" because he is cool or has social capital, you are part of the problem. this was a problem on ilx for a long time. i don't want to (or need to) give examples but i do relish the feeling of being able to say this without the hovering terror of being attacked. maybe i should be scared but i'm not anymore.

the men who were shitty to me were permitted to be not just by themselves and their selfish desires but by culture, their peers, and society at large. they faced no repercussions for their behavior and no one believed me when i told them otherwise, which i stopped doing because it hurt worse than just carrying it around myself. that's as harmful as the harm itself. the harm we inflict on ourselves after being harmed by others can last a lifetime if it's not submitted to the light of day.

i recommend reading Roxane Gay's Hunger if you want to learn a little empathy. Her book is excellent in that it is unflinching in its honesty, nonpornographic* in its detail, and committed to a first person narrative that doesn't ever try to shy away from responsibility by slipping into "you".

*meaning that her book doesn't lavish detail on the assault she experienced nor does it glamorize the assault with florid narrative flourishes.

I will take that rec. I'm in a book club too (which is split about 70-30 male) and I may suggest it as a next book.

FWIW, I also think it's good for us as men to learn to empathize with women in general, and not just with the bad experiences they go through, if that makes sense? Because real empathy is humanizing, and you can't fully humanize someone just by seeing them as a victim. Like literally just imagining what it would be like to be a woman in a variety of situations and not solely from the perspective of pity I think is helpful and something I'm still working on letting myself do more.