Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

anyone who's anyone knows its an acronym

Did I ruin it? Sorry if I did

― fgti, Saturday, October 14, 2017 2:08 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

definitely not

Well, that's all right then.

For a while in my early-30s, I was really actively looking for an older gay man that I could look up to as a role model. Somebody who had figured out a way of growing old with dignity, allowing their "gayness" to not necessarily be defined by the man on their arm, or something? Because, I don't know if you know this, but all gay men die sad, lonely and broke. Or at least most of them.

I met this actor dude who has got to be in his 80s. Really great guy. Just met him through friends, we had tea together. He was hilarious and smart and funny. I invited him over for dinner, and was hoping to kind of gently open up a conversation about "how do you transition from being a sexually active young/middle-aged gay man into being an oldster? How do your goals and aims change? How does your relationship to your sexuality change?" Guy came over and basically reminisced about "all the dicks he'd sucked through the years". An entire dinner of dick talk. Lol!

Most humans die lonely and broke I suspect.

I know what you mean, though. I hope marriage equality changes that for y’all. It springs eternal, hope; that’s what I’ve heard.

Marriage is not a solution to any systemic issues, come on.

V curious about that Sheckley story scott! He's an interesting one

Um many xps

Does anybody else mentally pronounce my username

fagheddi, like spageddy, like T✧✧@K✧✧.E✧✧

this was and is inspiring to me. i think when i first read it was just good to remember that people have been fighting for the progressive evolution of humanity for a long time and even though it's probably an endless process (will the earth even be habitable long enough for people to evolve?) it's always worth fighting the fight. this is from 1839. my great great great grandfather on women's rights. i love the disclaimer at the beginning from the editors of the magazine. he speaks for himself not us! and i love the part where he basically says that women have no responsibility to the government because the government is a usurpation of women. punk rock!

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044011393303;view=1up;seq=366

that link doesn't go right to it. jump to page 350.

it's totally Too Long/Didn't Read. i get that. but there is good stuff in it!

Marriage is not a solution to any systemic issues, come on.

I know many people have happy marriages, but as a cure-all for "having a sad life" ... just no.

I am well on my way to dying sad, lonely and broke, so that's my part done.

When the system recognizes the right of a spouse to visitation in hospitals, it totally does. I’m sorry progress isn’t perfect.
― El Tomboto, Saturday, October 14, 2017 4:24 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I have many relatives and friends who are physicians or otherwise involved in healthcare. The US government gives an insane number of perks to married people, but this is one that while technically true isn't usually an issue IRL. Hospitals and doctors are in the business of keeping as many patients as possible alive and well, and if they're told by a patient in critical condition that they'd feel better knowing their bf or gf was beside them, the hospital is going to let them in. They did for me, and for someone else who requested my presense though I was just her roommate.

if they're told by a patient in critical condition that they'd feel better knowing their bf or gf was beside them, the hospital is going to let them in

you have to be conscious to request the presence of your bf or gf

You'd have to be conscious to request you husband or wife too. I'm not sure how or even if a hospital goes about tracking down my next of kin if I'm in hospital and I'm unconscious, or if they even try to. Different phone numbers and last names. Do they actually check "in case of emergency" contacts on mobile phones? In any case, if they find someone connected to me that person will tell them who my gf/bf is and I can't imagine a hospital not letting them see me, unless they don't want any extraneous people in the operating room.

Yr spouse is normally your next of kin and has decision making power in event of the etc

They manage to find out who ppl are most of the time iirc

You'll maybe just have to believe that this matters idk

Not sure if your last post is rhetorical or not, Lee, but I’ve got an answer (via the person in my house who works in US health care/policy).

Essentially, if you’ve got a different last name from the injured party or admitted patient, you’ll be asked to explain your relationship when you try to see them. If the relationship is not close enough (which is to say unmarried, or a parent) the HIPPA mindset kicks in and walls start going up. Depending on the particulars of this situation and the person in charge of granting visitors access, you CAN and WILL be kept away from a loved one.

Lots of married couples have different last names too (over half of my married friends and relatives actually), and anyway HIPPA doesn't make many exceptions for family members re: privacy issues (obviously, lots of people don't want their medical issues shared with certain family members). I should really look into this and find out how hospitals know who's close to me and my primary emergency contact. I did put it in my iPhone where it's findable from the lock screen; not sure if hospitals look at these.

ok, here's the actual relevant HIPAA regulation regarding whom a hospital can notify if you're unconscious ("disclose to a family member, other relative, or a close personal friend of the individual, or any other person identified by the individual", emphasis mine). In most cases, the hospital finds out who you are and who's close to you by looking through your wallet, phone, or anything else you may have on you when you arrived there, or from whoever called the ambulance.

As for who's allowed to make medical decisions for you if you're unconscious or incapacitated, there your spouse gets preferential treatment since the government knows who your husband or wife is. Your girlfriend or boyfriend doesn't automatically get this privilege, which makes sense since the government (or hospital) doesn't know who my girlfriend is, or if the person claiming to be my gf really is my gf. However, you can gain this privilege by creating a medical/healthcare directive and a durable power of attorney for your finances naming your girlfriend. Regulations vary some by state, and obviously by country.

(/thread drift)

Useful info regarding above: http://family.findlaw.com/living-together/unmarried-partners-medical-directives-and-the-durable-power-of.html

so to change the subject away from hipaa (which i can't believe i'm doing, i guess there's a first time for everything)...

one of my friends posted that every man who's been a harasser, who's been an abuser, should be the one saying "me, too". i agree, but it was still hard for me to say that i'd at least once harassed a woman. any thoughts?

I have two instances of being sexually harassed by women though both were before I was 18, and two times doesn't even hold a candle to have often a typical woman is harassed by men.

it was hard for me to post "me too" but i did it

and i didn't do anything wrong

I've been sexually harassed by men more than women too, and in worse ways, although nowhere near as often as women get harassed. When I was a freshman in college I had a middle aged man approach me at a city bus stop and start asking increasingly intrusive questions about where i lived and my sexual habits and then asking if I wanted to get my dick sucked. I was 18 and even that one experience had a pretty bad effect on me and left me questioning for a long time if there was something wrong with me or some reason he chose me.

does not having done anything wrong make it harder?

no it should make it easier, but it doesn't
still hard

it is, and it sucks. it shouldn't be your responsibility.

It only occurred to me in recent years that I was kinda routinely sexually harassed by a friend of mine as a teenager, someone I'd known from childhood and who developed into kind of a shitty friend who routinely messed with me in a variety of ways (ex. my first experience with alcohol was when he plied me with glass after glass of this new peach-flavored Sprite that turned out to not actually be a thing that existed) until I decided I was just done dealing with it. Thankfully, he was never aggressive or overly-physical about it, but it was persistent and weirdly confusing. People have often mistaken me for gay and I'd often wondered if he was just confused and picking up on signals that I wasn't intending to give, but I realized at a point that he still should've relented when I explicitly told him I wasn't interested. I think I felt a little bad or guilty that I wasn't?

It's also weird because he was instrumental in introducing me to a lot of LGBT-positive entertainment at a formative time that I know helped me become a much more open and tolerant person than I might've become, given the geography and circumstances that were forming me at the time. But then that also has its own weird pall over it because I wonder if he was, like, trying to groom me or something. I dunno.

One of my perennial issues with modern-day discussions about sexual harassment and consent is that, in my experience, the definitions of "what is non-consensual" doesn't relate all the time to "what is traumatic".

Jia Tolentino wrote this in The New Yorker:

"If you have ever experienced sexual assault or harassment, you know that one of the cruellest things about these acts is the way that they entangle, and attempt to contaminate, all of the best things about you. If you’re sweet and friendly, you’ll think that it’s your fault for accommodating the situation. If you’re tough, well, you might as well decide that it’s no big deal. If you’re a gentle person, then he knew you were weak. If you’re talented, he thought of you as an equal. If you’re ambitious, you wanted it. If you’re savvy, you knew it was coming. If you’re affectionate, you seemed like you were asking for it all along. If you make dirty jokes or have a good time at parties, then why get moralistic? If you’re smart, there’s got to be some way to rationalize this.

When you are a young woman, and you believe in your own worth and personhood and agency, it can be hard, despite the clichés that govern this situation, to understand that an older man who takes an interest in you does not necessarily share these beliefs. And, of course, young women are not the only victims of such crimes. But this is a basic and familiar pattern: a powerful man sees you, a woman who is young and who thinks she might be talented, a person who conveniently exists in a female body, and he understands that he can tie your potential to your female body, and threaten the latter, and you will never be quite as sure of the former again."

This is, in my opinion, the missing link regarding traumatic relationships... if somebody in a position of power acts sexually toward you, regardless of any level of consensuality, there will be a synaptic link created. This link: "is my future as an actress less reliant upon my talent, and more upon my willingness to put out?" Or like, "academic future", "my future at this company", etc. The value of one's capability becomes compromised.

I've only read bits and pieces of this thread, but one thing that seems to be in question is how different, or not, rules of conduct are or should be for all-male spaces--which is to say, specifically gay spaces. It is something that has been on my mind a lot lately, both for academic and non-academic reasons. As any of the other queer men in this thread can undoubtedly attest, there are certain behaviours that are allowed to take place in gay male settings that would NEVER fly in heterosexual ones. One that comes to mind is the debate (which has recently come up again in Canada) over the legality surrounding disclosure of HIV status. I don't really want to start a debate on this particular issue, but one argument that I have found myself making, as many people seem to be arguing in favour of an HIV-positive person not having to their status to a sexual partner, is that this debate would probably sound a lot different if HIV as a specifically sexually transmitted disease specifically in Western countries were not one closely--I'm trying not to say exclusively--associated with gay men. Taking it away from the HIV issue again, I still don't think that, despite some high profile cases (Bryan Singer) shining a public light on the subject, that we still really conceive of sexual violence, harassment or coercion as being something that occurs among gay men.

I guess my point is that whether or not such issues should be considered differently when they take place in all-male spaces, it currently seems to be the case that they are.

(continuation of my previous post)

In the gay community it kind of holds that any differential in dick size, age, beauty, affluence, one's place on the racial hierarchy*, fitness and so forth means that All Relationships Are Unequal, and contain power differentials. Non-consensual activity in the gay community has seemed, in my experience, to have had a far less traumatizing effect on my friends, than scenarios that re-enforce and/or exploit the power dynamics and brutalize people's self-image as a result.

*a system that obviously nobody agrees with, but neither has anybody seemed to have figured out a definitive way of attacking

On Old Lunch's experience: it isn't always easy for gay kids to figure out for sure who else is gay, but getting someone drunk (especially if they don't know they're drinking alcohol!) in order to find out is probably the very worst way to go about it.

not to distract from the other important gay community convo going on but

one of my friends posted that every man who's been a harasser, who's been an abuser, should be the one saying "me, too". i agree, but it was still hard for me to say that i'd at least once harassed a woman. any thoughts?

my thoughts are that this is total bullshit, more "me me me" whiny crap, "why isn't there a National Men's Day" etc.

women are responding viscerally to this and let's just stfu and honor that

I dunno. I had a friend come forward a few years ago and post about how he'd been called in for sexual abuse. He told people about what he'd gone through (therapeutically) as a result. He apologized to his victims again. It was amazing. This is kind of the reason why I wish sexual abuse was destigmatized. It makes it easier for perpetrators to step up and admit fault

I agree w/your general point on that but I still don't wanna see any men going "what about me" in my FB timeline cuz imo this "me too" thing is a response to the imbalances of power regarding women specifically, and the universality or near-universality of sexual assault as pertains to women

Hm OK, you do realize that the proposition was that men step up to admit that they'd assaulted and/or harassed women, though, right? not men stepping up to describe scenarios in which they'd been assaulted by women or men (sorry if this question comes across as patronizing I just want to be clear we're clear)

I have been grappling with that because it is, as sleeve said, women having a solidarity and making it clear to friends that they aren’t alone and sharing a sense of recognition

I have one friend on facebook who posted about how he’s been a harasser and how he understands the wrongness of the behavior he’s exhibited. I thought it was well-phrased, and women have responded positively to the fact he did it. But the response that made me wonder was the question, “How have you sexually harassed women?”

That’s where the cynic in me thinks that all women have been harassed, most/all men have been harassers, and defining the harassment isn’t for the harasser or abuser to define. I can think of incidents where I feel uncomfortable with how I’ve acted and things I’ve done, and to me they were harassment but I don’t want to speak out about things when, in a few cases, my acts might have been construed differently than I’ve seen them and it feels like I’m looking for validation that I wasn’t really causing harm.

i can't imagine anyone feeling comfortable "coming forward" in this way about transgressions that they actually thought were serious. maybe in the case of people who want to unburden a severely guilty conscience. but i don't think someone who is a "sexual abuser" would come forward about that for the sake of furthering the conversation in a way that helps women.

more likely, the people coming forward as harassers either didn't do anything that serious or else aren't taking what they did seriously.

Yeah. Especially on facebook of all places.

there are certain behaviours that are allowed to take place in gay male settings that would NEVER fly in heterosexual ones.

crypto otm here

fwiw, I was gonna post about the differences between male-male vs male-female workplace relationships even where sexual harassment is not in play, and there are definitely more general behaviors that seem to be perceived more as "bullying" when from a male to a female, where as males are socialized to see it more as "coaching" or "tough love" or something. I wonder if even in the gay community that same kind of male socialization comes into play.

I think people might want to come forward on Facebook as "abusers" in order to hold themselves accountable to their community? I think the demonstration might be a good example toward other men who feel conflicted about scenarios in which they've assaulted somebody? I think it demonstrates to women who have been assaulted that there are men who are willing to be held accountable and believe them when they say "you assaulted me"?

been following this thread without contributing so far and I want to thank everybody for their honesty and perspective, it's been really illuminating and refreshing and much love to the victims who have spoke about their experiences.

I'm an openly gay man, and I've never been good at masking or hiding it - my interests code as traditionally "camp", my voice is higher, I talk a lot with my hands, etc. I don't attempt to pass as straight and most people realise instantly. That's shaped a lot of my experience of what masculinity is, how I perform it, how I deal with it. It's only been the past two or three years where I've felt confident enough to enter a room or sit at a table in a bar with a group of men and not have to downplay my gayness in order to assimilate - before that I'd have checked myself, watching the way I spoke and the level of my voice, going along with conversations about "masculine" topics such as football that I have no interest or knowledge regarding.

The thing about homophobia that can't be stressed enough is that it's routed in misogyny - it's perceiving weakness in men because their traits resemble those associated with women. Which sounds pretty obvious, but sometimes it needs spelled out. "No fats no femmes" is so common in gay experience.

I think recognising what the impact of rape culture, homophobic social structures, etc, actually looks like in practice is vital. For me, it isn't about the names that people use against me or who has said/done things to me. It's the fact that every new situation I find myself in becomes a potential risk. It isn't about whether or not I've been attacked phsyically for being obviously gay, it's about the ambient threat that permeates my world, the fact that at thirty years old I still walk home with my key in my hand in case someone should appear ready to hurt me because of their prejudice. And I say all this as a white guy in a relatively safe existence: it must be so much worse for people with less structural privilege than me.

In terms of the sexual assault discussion upthread and the idea of power in relationships, I think about a few occasions where my own will has been compromised:

I don't like blowjobs from either side of the experience but I run out of fingers when I count the guys who've pushed my face down and I've let myself go along with it because this is what gay men do, this is what they expect. I don't think of those times as assault because I could and should have said no but in my eagerness to please I've went along with it.

When I was 15 and curious and there was no opportunity to explore my sexuality in my immediate small-town life, I did what everyone does: I went online. I set up an account on Faceparty, which was like a mix of OKCupid and Facebook in the early noughties, and like many guys my age I would chat via MSN to guys who I would then meet with at the under-age clubnights in the city in the weekend for a snog. But I would also get messages from older guys. One guy who was 30 who was insanely good-looking and said all the right things and I very nearly did meet up with. And at the time I would have been very willing and able. But as I've approached 30 myself it's gradually dawned on me how wrong that would have been - it was predatory, and I can't imagine myself ever wanting to cast myself in the older role of that dynamic.

When I was 19 I dated a guy who told me he was 29 but later discovered to be in his mid thirties. I was really into the relationship because this guy was into music and books that I was into, and he was academic and invested in the same cultural theory topics I was enjoying studying at university. His career was taking him in directions that at the time I wanted to pursue. But he was also very controlling. When we first started hanging out, before it became anything serious, he fell out with me for a week because I had friends over for lunch and it over-ran meaning our date (ie a takeaway at his house) would have to be postponed or cancelled. He was fairly vicious about it, and I found myself begging for a second chance, when in actual fact I should have taken it as a red flag. We were on and off for nearly a year. He would get drunk and tell me he loved me and was suicidal in the same breath, but I would also find myself waking up in bed with him masturbating beside me. It was manipulative behaviour and he clearly didn't respect my sexual boundaries. I don't think of waking up to find him pleasuring himself while looking at my body as anything more than "creepy" but it is uncomfortable enough to make me flinch if I think about it.

When I was 21 I interviewed a b-list 40-something gay TV comedian for a student magazine. The day the interview was scheduled came and I phoned up to ask my questions only to discover that his mother had died the day before. I offered to cancel but he was insistent the interview go ahead, and I ended up with a piece which I was really happy with - he was open and honest about his grief and it made for some really moving copy. When the interviewee came to Glaasgow he invited me to come see his stand-up comedy show and we ended up going for a drink afterwards. He told me more about his grief, his unhappiness, and the effect on his relationship. I wasn't naive enough to believe that a prime-time figure was opening his heart out to a university student without an ulterior motive, but when you're 21 and a famous person wants to have sex with you, it's thrilling. I'm not sure who was exploiting who there.

this is all a bit off-topic in terms of this thread's remit but I thought these thoughts and stories were relevant, and also I wanted to share them because they're not something I ever really talk about, even with my friends.

thanks for that, boxedjoy.

women are responding viscerally to this and let's just stfu and honor that

sleeve otm

my thoughts are that this is total bullshit, more "me me me" whiny crap, "why isn't there a National Men's Day" etc.

women are responding viscerally to this and let's just stfu and honor that

― sleeve

i mean, if this was just a consciousness-raising exercise, if it was just about recognizing and honoring women for their experiences, i'd agree. i'm not seeing it that way. this is something men do to women, not something "bad guys" do but something _any_ man can do, and i don't think just putting on our empathy faces is an adequate response to this. we, as human beings and as men, need to do something about this shit, and acknowleding our individual culpability seems like a good start.

then again i used to be catholic, so what the hell do i know?